England's coming revolution in university funding-profs and students quaking!

Goban Saor

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I am a taxpayer and I am happy with people studying Arts. So now what do we do?
Fund it privately.

Was it Leaving Cert English that stopped you getting into College, or were there other fails as well?
I have never failed anything and I have a university degree. If you guess its probably not an arts degree.
 


patslatt

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Social skills development important

That sounds reasonable





Essential, the system must encourage the able from all backgrounds.




Common sense you would think, I could go on about the children of the wealthy being educated beyond their ability and occupying places in good universities and depriving more able of opportunity.



About time.



How do they produce anything meaningful? It is open to all sorts of distortions. Money they earn through dent of labour or money they earn through wealth? Apart from that whilst eventual earnings is a consideration for most this sort of emphasis is at best misguided.



Why finance subjects that are basically hobbies?


I have heard people describe the current education and qualification regime as a qualification bubble. The more qualifications, in circulation the less any of them are worth. That of course is before we consider pointless and poorly devised courses.

The devil in this will be in the detail. Personally I believe there is an over emphasis in University education and that many who go there would perhaps be better suited elsewhere?
Classroom learning aside,the development of social skills through the opportunities for socialising in college life has an important influence on careers. Selection of applicants in most job interviews for professional work is influenced by social skills,especially the perceived ability to fit in with the working group. Of course,this is an advantage for the individual,not for the economy as a whole; if the level of social skills fell,it wouldn't change economic output.

Another advantage of socialising in college is the opportunity to have intellectual conversation with friends and acquaintances. Some clever people I've met claim they learned more in pub debates with friends than in university.
 

patslatt

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Sacred cows

I so envy the UK population at present. They have a radical and courageous coalition govt slaughtering sacred cows day after day. And we have FF/Greens. :(
The government apes the UK in everything,a good policy to the extent that what works there generally works here. If the UK slaughter of sacred cows proves succesful,it will be difficult for any Irish government not to follow suit.
 

firefighter

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Yes nothing beats a natter in the quad and dinner afterwords in the common room. What ho old chap! The fact that you have dredged up a 19th century religious fanatic to justify your outdated views sums it up. If you want to study hobby courses let you pay for it not the taxpayer. Hopefully this will see Women's Studies and Ethnic Studies binned for good.
You've obviously never set foot in a dining hall or common room in your life. I guess all those Oxbridge students were simply pi$$ing away their talent having deep and meaningful exchanges with one another...

I suppose you'd prefer cheap shots in the UL student bar... Great craic altogether. AA when you hit 30 and the reality of the world smacks you in the face. Can't stand the sight of your friends owning cars and houses.
 
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patslatt

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Serious students

And so continues Englands slide down the toilet...

In 20 years investors will weigh up the quality of the education system, and they won't be impressed.
Students paying for education are likely to be far more serious about it and demanding. Layabouts will be far less numerous and will tend to go for shorter degrees,maybe 2 years.
 

firefighter

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Students paying for education are likely to be far more serious about it and demanding. Layabouts will be far less numerous and will tend to go for shorter degrees,maybe 2 years.
And all the shi.tty ITs full of 3rd rate "lecturers" will be shown up. Let them rot AFAIC. Incentivise employers to take on apprentices for those who can't make it into university.
 

patslatt

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Institutes of technology get results

People who spew crap such as "bloody arts students" are ignorant buffoons who don't know the difference between a qualification and an education. Usually it's because they don't understand the collegiate nature of university life as they've never experienced it themselves and are slightly bitter. Read Cardinal Newman's "Idea of a University".

Oxford and Cambridge won't be affected by this one bit. Trinity College, Cambridge for example has a trust fund of about £1bn. They don't spend money on anything unless they have a trust to back it up. E.g. a professor's salary of £100k per annum needs a trust of ~£5m - the 100k can be taken out each year and the trust still maintains itself against inflation. Of course the smart thing to do is to have a £6m trust that grows over time. Which is what Oxbridge do.

Education for the masses has failed. Why should taxpayers pay for it? The meaning of the word "university" has utterly changed. For the worse IMO.

Here in Ireland, the last bastions of proper university life include Trinity College, the Royal University (now UCD - I use Royal "University" because that was a proper university given the fullest sense of the word, UCC and Maynooth (which both still maintain remnants of the collegiate nature of proper universities).

UL, DCU, and all the ITs dotted evenly around the country are full of deluded people who live in the future and 3rd rate "lecturers" who haven't written a quality research paper in years and some, who have never written a paper in their lives. The pensions and tea breaks are great though.

Bill Gates has some very interesting stuff to say on universities in the modern world. In particular, the growth of e-learning and continual professional development facilitated by the internet. Organisations like the Open University are thriving and I have a lot of time for the work that they do.

Anyway, the Labour policy of the 1990s has failed. Nobody will be willing to pay €5k to €10k a year for a 3rd rate education in a local IT which will result in their inevitable decline and that, for everyone, will be a good thing.

Nothing like a good apprenticeship in an expanding organisation when you're 18. I've seen people joining the bank at 18 ending up on the trading room floor on full salary + commission at 22, alongside B€$$ and BComm entitlement graduates working for €20k on "graduate programs".
Some institutes of technology have very high standards,DIT,Bolton Street in civil and mechanical engineering for example. I've seen very impressive job experience CVs of computer tech graduates from ITs. Some acquaintances have done well with IT degrees: An electronics engineer from Drogheda IT got a job in Tokyo engineering car dashboards and a biotech graduate went to Carlow IT,attracted by the fact that the college had good connections with biotech multinationals for finding jobs.

Of course,this anecdotal evidence isn't proof of the IT's ability to place graduates in jobs that they couldn't have got without graduation.

By and large,I've noticed in my travels abroad to the US and Canada that the collegiate experience benefits most people,even if it is only for developing social skills through the active social life of many colleges.
 

patslatt

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Private US colleges a minority; revolt of the UK elite universities

darn interesting stance on the universities alright.

but there is an ideological side to all of this - the conservatives fully understand that the universities are hotbeds of radical leftism and more dangerously, radical Islamism (cos the far-left are in bed with the Jihadist nutjobs)

and thats being supported by the taxpayer. its not in the conservative party's interest to have this farce go on any more. and the conservatives also believe it's not in the countries interest either.

now the universities will feel the full brunt of market forces, and will actually have to grow up and earn an living. like the rest of the population.

i for one think its a smart move - american universities are all private and they arent short of a bob or two , and have been major engines of growth in the U.S. economy e.g. Stanford or MIT - it's obvious that the conservatives want to copy this U.S. model. So, its both for ideological AND economic reasons.
Private colleges serve a minority of students in the US,the famous IVY League colleges being relatively small compared to giant state universities like the California state system.

THe UK's elite universities,which technically are independent institutions even if state financed, may revolt at the government's taking about 40% of any fees above £7,000 and declare complete independence. Under UK property rights,the government could not do so if universities resisted.THe government couldn't retaliate much as it would still be forced to support their technical and scientific work to keep the UK economy competitive. To make up for any shortages of funds from government,those universities can become more professional in their appeal to rich graduates to fund projects,just like Harvard,Yale and others.
 

Cael

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The collapse of capitalism has shown the insanity of privatisation - but, the fools are doing even more of it. Turning universities over to the perverse antics of "the market" is an admission that European civilisation, as we have known it since Plato founded the Acadamy, is over. We are now in a new barbarian age.
 

patslatt

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Why arts degrees should be subsidised

Didnt say that. If education is privatised then I dont care what they learn. But If I am being taxed then I want them to do sciences.



Take hippie nonsense somewhere else. We dont need more braindead academics ranting theories and nonsense. If you like English lit then a book and dont come to me to fund your hobby.
Nobel Prize winning economist and advocate of free markets Milton Friedman argued that society benefits from having a large population of liberally educated people and so subsidisng education in liberal arts and humanities is justified. Oddly for a right winger,he was against subsidising technical degrees which he felt on economic grounds should pay for themselves. THe problem with that is that countries that subsidise technical degrees will have a competitive advantage in technical industries.
 

Cael

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Nobel Prize winning economist and advocate of free markets Milton Friedman argued that society benefits from having a large population of liberally educated people and so subsidisng education in liberal arts and humanities is justified. Oddly for a right winger,he was against subsidising technical degrees which he felt on economic grounds should pay for themselves. THe problem with that is that countries that subsidise technical degrees will have a competitive advantage in technical industries.
But look at what Milton Friedman and his insanely extremist ideas did to the world.
 

patslatt

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Pointless arts degrees. Need for career guidance.

The UK is basically heading down the road of US universities. In terms of international and domestic academic success one has to admit that US universities do far better.

There is in the UK and indeed Ireland a huge over production of near pointless arts graduates. On the back of a recent report that employers find graduate students communiction skills well below par, one has to further question that practice and the focus of all universities in both the UK and Ireland.

But in terms of proformance our university system has been under greater criticism, most notably from employers like Intel. The cost of producing graduates has gone up, the suitability of those graduates has gone down. On another level we do not produce enough of the right qualifications (even the flawed ones) to fuel our economy because no number of Arts grads can do the job of an African doctor brought in to fill a vacancy for which there is no suitable Irish candidate. So developing and 3rd world countries fill the gaping hole left by our university system, the administers of which have made no ackowledgement of the fact a problem exists and produced no plan to alter the current system.

Universities and indeed the degrees they produce seem to have become an end in themselves. An expensive and unproductive folly that as a nation we will pay double for.

Good luck to the UK on this. They will see the benefits that we can only dream of.
Arts degrees improve communications skills,so when arts graduates have poor communications skills,they probably were poor students. Possibly,they were uninterested in education and wanted the degree just to find professional work. Many students spend too much time working.which takes from demanding courses in technical and scientific areas.

Students need to study carefully what the job prospects are for their intended qualifications. In the case of arts and humanities,they probably need to pursue specialised postgraduate courses geared to profession they wish to pursue.
 

Cael

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Arts degrees improve communications skills,so when arts graduates have poor communications skills,they probably were poor students. Possibly,they were uninterested in education and wanted the degree just to find professional work. Many students spend too much time working.which takes from demanding courses in technical and scientific areas.

Students need to study carefully what the job prospects are for their intended qualifications. In the case of arts and humanities,they probably need to pursue specialised postgraduate courses geared to profession they wish to pursue.
Some people do degrees - just for the love of learning.
 

patslatt

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Milton Friedman

But look at what Milton Friedman and his insanely extremist ideas did to the world.
Free market generally work well with light touch regulation,but some industries need strong regulation,such as banking which is an essential utility plus some natural monopolies or oligopolies. Friedman thought that enforcement of property rights could replace regulation. Huge fines in class action lawsuits have forced US businesses to ensure product safety and avoid environmental damage,as BP will learn after paying out €10 to 20 billion.
 

Cael

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Free market generally work well with light touch regulation,but some industries need strong regulation,such as banking which is an essential utility plus some natural monopolies or oligopolies. Friedman thought that enforcement of property rights could replace regulation. Huge fines in class action lawsuits have forced US businesses to ensure product safety and avoid environmental damage,as BP will learn after paying out €10 to 20 billion.
A chara, pretty much everything Friedman said has been shown to be in error. He claimed that balance of trade is no longer necessary - wrong. He claimed that the markets, if allowed to do their thing, would increase general prosperity - outrageously wrong. His involvement in the Shock Privatisations in Russia was genocidal, as were most of his interventions in South America.

I hope you dont really think that fines against BP will stop environmental damage in the future. Every capitalist thinks that he is the one who will get away with it...
 

stringjack

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The collapse of capitalism has shown the insanity of privatisation - but, the fools are doing even more of it. Turning universities over to the perverse antics of "the market" is an admission that European civilisation, as we have known it since Plato founded the Acadamy, is over. We are now in a new barbarian age.
Because, as we all know, the Academy was a state-organised institution, and wasn't privately owned and organised or funded through student fees.
 

FutureTaoiseach

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Privatisation of universities is necessary to exorcise the Left-Liberal bias in Third Level academia. They should not be colleges of Communism. :roll: Remember Paris 1968.
 

stringjack

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Privatisation of universities is necessary to exorcise the Left-Liberal bias in Third Level academia. They should not be colleges of Communism. :roll: Remember Paris 1968.
Because, as we all know, private universities in the United States are bastions of conservatism.
 


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