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Ethiopian Airlines B737 crashes

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cozzy121

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Damning..

https://moneymaven.io/mishtalk/economics/airline-pilots-respond-to-boeing-737-max-unsafe-to-fly-it-s-not-just-boeing-26V25hUYpk-S3vqknPvjAQ/

As an industry expert, I have flown the 737 max as a line captain and it was my 12th type rating. The MCAS is the tip of the iceberg, this airplane is majorly flawed not only aerodynamically but also technically.
Never before have I encountered such strange behavior from an airliner.
Pilots are now younger and more inexperienced. A bad stall indication system will only exacerbate the situation. Adding a light or more information to digest will only delay the response.
The 737 Max automation is very weak compare to other Boeing products and especially compared to Airbus.
I have flown the Boeing 767 which first flew in the early 1980's. It is more advanced that the 737 max. Why? The 737 max is an older design and has shown the limits of what this fuselage could bring. It’s like having an IPhone 10 that you have to plug in a phone jack to get internet.
I asked to be removed from flying the 737 max ever again. I don’t trust this airplane and I have 17,000 hours as a line Captain and have been an instructor for close to half this time.
Why should the public trust the airplane? I don’t.


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Orbit v2

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From the first link "it's not just Boeing" ....

and the paragraph below is exactly what I've been saying, and the opposite of what pabalito has been saying.

:cool:
Screen Shot 2019-04-26 at 12.11.09.pngForm
 

Orbit v2

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I think you misread the bit in the linked paragraph where it used the word "myth".
No, I didn't. That's been my point all along. It's a new aircraft with different flight characteristics. You've been saying that's not the issue and it's just and unsafe design.
 

cozzy121

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Disgraceful performance by Boeing CEO, looks like he was trying to blame the pilots for the crash..


It came after the CEO of Boeing defended the company’s safety record and declined to take any more than partial blame for two deadly crashes of its best-selling plane even while saying Monday that the company has nearly finished an update that “will make the airplane even safer.”
Chairman and CEO Dennis Muilenburg took reporters’ questions for the first time since accidents involving the Boeing 737 MAX in Indonesia and Ethiopia killed 346 people and plunged Boeing into its deepest crisis in years.
Mr Muilenburg said that Boeing followed the same design and certification process it has always used to build safe planes, and he denied that the MAX was rushed to market.

Boeing's CEO said the pilots did not "completely" follow procedures outlined to prevent the kind of malfunction that probably caused the crash of an Ethiopian Airlines jet, which killed all 157 people on board.
 

cozzy121

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Is Corporate manslaughter a crime?



Boeing has admitted that it knew about a problem with its 737 Max jets a year before the aircraft was involved in two fatal accidents, but took no action.

The firm said it had inadvertently made an alarm feature optional instead of standard, but insisted that this did not jeopardise flight safety.

All 737 Max planes were grounded in March after an Ethiopian Airlines flight crashed, killing 157 people.

Five months earlier, 189 people were killed in a Lion Air crash.


 

riven

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Really does question the safety culture at Boeing. Heads should already be rolling now, and I hope prosecution comes.
 

cozzy121

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Boeing Max Failed to Apply Safety Lesson From Deadly 2009 Crash

A fatal airplane crash a decade ago prompted a life-saving fix across thousands of Boeing 737 cockpits. So why wasn’t the same lesson applied to the design of the 737 Max, an upgraded version on which 346 people died in recent disasters?
Investigators of the 2009 crash of a Turkish Airlines jet identified a faulty altitude sensor that thought the plane was closer to the ground than it was and triggered the engines to idle. The plane’s second radio altimeter displayed the correct elevation, but it didn’t matter: the automatic throttle was tied to the first gauge. The Amsterdam-bound plane crashed into a field, killing nine people and injuring 120.
Boeing ended up changing that throttle system to prevent one erroneous altitude reading from cascading into tragedy, changes the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration subsequently made mandatory.
Yet when the Max debuted in 2017 with a new flight-control feature to help pilots avoid a stall, it was designed to react to only one of the plane’s two “angle of attack” sensors that measure the jet’s incline. That proved deadly when malfunctioning sensors on jets operated by Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines automatically commanded the noses of the planes down over and over, even though the other sensor showed it wasn’t necessary.
 

artfoley56

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Really does question the safety culture at Boeing. Heads should already be rolling now, and I hope prosecution comes.
heads should also be rolling at the FAA
 

cozzy121

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heads should also be rolling at the FAA
I read somewhere that if this was Airbus and not Boeing then the Feds would have been all over them like they were on BP after the New Horizon explosion and spill.
 

cozzy121

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Further evidence that money matters more that passengers..


Former Boeing Engineers Say Relentless Cost-Cutting Sacrificed Safety

"The push for efficiency has only accelerated under Dennis Muilenburg, who since becoming chief executive officer in 2015 has demanded price concessions from suppliers, heaped more cost demands on engineers, and cut the workforce about 7 percent while making many more planes.
Adam Dickson, a manager of fuel systems engineering for the 737 Max, retired in November after almost 30 years at Boeing—in part, he says, because of dismay over performance targets that risked sacrificing safety for profits. “It was engineering that would have to bend,” he says. The company’s priorities were expressed in annual performance reviews in which engineers were measured in part on how much their designs had cost. “Idea’s [sic] are measured in dollars,” as a manager put it in one engineer’s annual evaluation."
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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Pabilito

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Interview with Ethiopian Airlines CEO....he seems to deny that excessive speed and failure to control engine power was a factor. I think he’s wrong.

The MCAS kluge caused the crash.. nothing or nobody else caused it.
Excessive speed probably resulted from the MCAS induced nose dive and who knows what engine power adjustments the pilots employed while trying to recover the aircraft from that dive.. I’m somewhat surprised at a pilot blaming pilots for flawed engineering.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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The MCAS kluge caused the crash.. nothing or nobody else caused it.
Excessive speed probably resulted from the MCAS induced nose dive and who knows what engine power adjustments the pilots employed while trying to recover the aircraft from that dive.. I’m somewhat surprised at a pilot blaming pilots for flawed engineering.
We do know what power adjustments were made......none. The FDR info is in the initial report. Excessive speed was initially the result of full power being maintained in level flight. Excessive speed compounded the nose down force.

Crashes are rarely, if ever, the result of a single factor.
 

Pabilito

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We do know what power adjustments were made......none. The FDR info is in the initial report. Excessive speed was initially the result of full power being maintained in level flight. Excessive speed compounded the nose down force.

Crashes are rarely, if ever, the result of a single factor.

The famous Sully Crash was the result of a single cause.. a one off Bird Strike.. no other factors involved other than the bird strike.. it's a myth that all accidents are caused by a chain of events.
 
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cozzy121

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The deaths of innocents won't matter to Boeing, but the death of their profit margin will


".. company report says that Boeing has not sold a single new 737 Max aircraft since the line was grounded on March 13, while April also saw no new sales of other Boeing jets “such as the 787 Dreamliner or the 777,” CNN wrote. The report suggests that potential customers have grown wary about the wisdom of buying 737 Max aircraft, and have held off on buying other Boeing models that were not involved in crashes as well:"
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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The famous Sully Crash was the result of a single cause.. a one off Bird Strike.. no other factors involved other than the bird strike.. it's a myth that all accidents are caused by a chain of events.
Captain Sullenberger is deservedly a great hero of modern aviation. However, even his actions are open to minor criticism. No incident is ever handled perfectly by any pilot.

The Ethiopian flightcrew made significant errors. IMO those errors were understandable given their unfamiliarity with this problem, their lack of training with regard to MCAS and their lack of experience.

Boeing is obviously primarily at fault here, blatantly so. However, IMO, the Ethiopian Airlines CEO is far too keen to blame everything on Boeing. I think there may well have been failings and weaknesses within his own organisation that contributed to this disaster.
 

cozzy121

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Captain Sullenberger is deservedly a great hero of modern aviation. However, even his actions are open to minor criticism. No incident is ever handled perfectly by any pilot.

The Ethiopian flightcrew made significant errors. IMO those errors were understandable given their unfamiliarity with this problem, their lack of training with regard to MCAS and their lack of experience.

Boeing is obviously primarily at fault here, blatantly so. However, IMO, the Ethiopian Airlines CEO is far too keen to blame everything on Boeing. I think there may well have been failings and weaknesses within his own organisation that contributed to this disaster.
As if Boeing respects what pilots have to say..


"American Airlines (AA) pilots angrily confronted a Boeing official about an anti-stall system suspected in two fatal crashes of the manufacturer’s 737 Max aircraft, according to a new recording. Members of AA’s pilots’ union quizzed Boeing officials about the system – knowns as MCAS – in a tense meeting in November last year, weeks after a Lion Air Max crashed in Indonesia and four months before the loss of an Ethiopian Airlines Max. In total, 346 people died in the two crashes. Boeing has been criticized for not disclosing how the MCAS anti-stall system worked – a move that allowed the company to avoid costly retraining. “We flat-out deserve to know what is on our airplanes,” one pilot is heard saying in the recording. “These guys didn’t even know the damn system was on the airplane – nor did anybody else,” another said. The official, Boeing vice-president Mike Sinnett, claimed the Lion Air disaster was a once-in-a-lifetime accident."
 

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