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Ethiopian Airlines B737 crashes

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Pabilito

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As I said before, the overspeed was not the result of any decision. It was the result of omission.
Well.. be honest.. you said the overspeed was the result of a decision NOT to reduce speed.

I never claimed that simulators are perfect. I did say that they very closely match the behaviour of the aircraft when they are operated within the flight envelope. Modelling behaviour outside that envelope is difficult as much of that modelling is based on test flights carried as part of the certification process. Those test flights do not extend significantly beyond that envelope.

Boeing issued a statement acknowledging that the Max simulator needed to be modified to better match reality.

Boeing acknowledges flaw in 737 MAX simulator software
So we agree.. simulators are fine for simulating normal fair weather uneventful flights but more or less useless in simulating those unexpected conditions that cause accidents.
 


Nebuchadnezzar

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Well.. be honest.. you said the overspeed was the result of a decision NOT to reduce speed.
I did not.

So we agree.. simulators are fine for simulating normal fair weather uneventful flights but more or less useless in simulating those unexpected conditions that cause accidents.
No we do not agree. Over the course of my career I have spent hundreds of hours practicing various emergency scenarios some of which specifically dealt with bad weather conditions such as wind shear or max cross wind landings combined with turbulence. More or less useless according to you.
 

Pabilito

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I did not.

You said: “1 minute after take off they made a 238 knots speed selection but they failed to reduce take off power

I assume power and speed are directly related so not reducing take off power would mean not reducing speed?

No we do not agree. Over the course of my career I have spent hundreds of hours practicing various emergency scenarios some of which specifically dealt with bad weather conditions such as wind shear or max cross wind landings combined with turbulence. More or less useless according to you.
I’m sure the simulator helps but no way can it simulate the actual real world.. what makes you so certain that simulators accurately simulate reality?



 

Baron von Biffo

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You said: “1 minute after take off they made a 238 knots speed selection but they failed to reduce take off power

I assume power and speed are directly related so not reducing take off power would mean not reducing speed?



I’m sure the simulator helps but no way can it simulate the actual real world.. what makes you so certain that simulators accurately simulate reality?
You seem to have a great need to prove yourself more knowledgeable on this subject than someone who does it for a living.

It's not a good look.
 

Pabilito

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You seem to have a great need to prove yourself more knowledgeable on this subject than someone who does it for a living.

It's not a good look.

The subject here is an Air Accident… I doubt even Biggles would be impressed with you weighing in here and suggesting that he makes a living from Air Accidents..

It must be very quiet over there on IrishPoliticsOnline… are you feeling a tad bored Biff?
 

Baron von Biffo

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The subject here is an Air Accident… I doubt even Biggles would be impressed with you weighing in here and suggesting that he makes a living from Air Accidents..

It must be very quiet over there on IrishPoliticsOnline… are you feeling a tad bored Biff?
Biggles, as I recall, was quite scrupulous about safety. And he certainly wouldn't havve been so foolish as to misunderstand what I wrote, nor so dishonest as to pretend to.
 

Pabilito

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Biggles, as I recall, was quite scrupulous about safety. And he certainly wouldn't havve been so foolish as to misunderstand what I wrote, nor so dishonest as to pretend to.
So you’re crawling back under the rock you foolishly popped up from underneath! .. nite Biffo!
 

Pabilito

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You seem to have a great need to prove yourself more knowledgeable on this subject than someone who does it for a living.

It's not a good look.
I take you’re aware that aircraft and their simulators are not designed or built by pilots.. they are designed by engineers and scientists.. The Wright Brothers and the people that initiated modern flight and the space program back in the 60’s were mostly engineers not pilots.
Yes Pilots are the glamorous faces of aviation that impresses the likes of you.. but they are not the creators of aircraft as you seem to believe.
As a chartered engineer in both disciplines of electronics and computer science, I can safely argue that I probably know far more about the capabilities and limitations of an aircraft simulator than most aircraft pilots or you would know.

























 

Baron von Biffo

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I take you’re aware that aircraft and their simulators are not designed or built by pilots.. they are designed by engineers and scientists.. The Wright Brothers and the people that initiated modern flight and the space program back in the 60’s were mostly engineers not pilots.
Yes Pilots are the glamorous faces of aviation that impresses the likes of you.. but they are not the creators of aircraft as you seem to believe.
As a chartered engineer in both disciplines of electronics and computer science, I can safely argue that I probably know far more about the capabilities and limitations of an aircraft simulator than most aircraft pilots or you would know.
L’esprit de l’escalier. ;)
 

Orbit v2

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I take you’re aware that aircraft and their simulators are not designed or built by pilots.. they are designed by engineers and scientists..
Most serious simulators use data from test flights, flown by pilots on the actual planes, to make sure the simulation is as realistic as possible.

If simulators weren't realistic, I think we would have heard about it from pilots complaining about it.
The Wright Brothers and the people that initiated modern flight and the space program back in the 60’s were mostly engineers not pilots.
Yes Pilots are the glamorous faces of aviation that impresses the likes of you.. but they are not the creators of aircraft as you seem to believe.
As a chartered engineer in both disciplines of electronics and computer science, I can safely argue that I probably know far more about the capabilities and limitations of an aircraft simulator than most aircraft pilots or you would know.

:rolleyes:
 

Pabilito

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Most serious simulators use data from test flights, flown by pilots on the actual planes, to make sure the simulation is as realistic as possible.
What exactly are you referring to when you refer to "serious simulators" .. are you suggesting that there are aircraft simulators in existence that aren’t serious?

If simulators weren't realistic, I think we would have heard about it from pilots complaining about it.
The reason we haven’t heard any complaints from the unfortunate 737 Ethiopian or Lion Air MAX pilots about simulators is because they are DEAD
 

Orbit v2

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What exactly are you referring to when you refer to "serious simulators" .. are you suggesting that there are aircraft simulators in existence that aren’t serious?
I mean professional ones used for training pilots as opposed to the likes of Microsoft Flight Simulator.
The reason we haven’t heard any complaints from the unfortunate 737 Ethiopian or Lion Air MAX pilots about simulators is because they are DEAD
And what about all the other professional pilots in the world? Where are the complaints from them?
 

Pabilito

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I mean professional ones used for training pilots as opposed to the likes of Microsoft Flight Simulator.

And what about all the other professional pilots in the world? Where are the complaints from them?
Pprune has lots of professional pilots complaining about the Max:

 

Orbit v2

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I mean professional ones used for training pilots as opposed to the likes of Microsoft Flight Simulator.
Though it has to be said Microsoft Flight Simulator is supposed to be pretty good. There's a new version coming out and the imagery shown below is fairly impressive
 

cozzy121

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One should never wish for an air-crash but corporate manslaughter is a terrible crime..


"American Airlines has a plan for convincing consumers that the Boeing 737 Max aircraft in its fleet are safe for flight: Stick their top brass on them and see how it goes.

American Airlines chief Doug Parker said during a shareholders meeting this week that executives and other staff would take flights on the 737 Max jets before the carrier would ask its customers to do so, Bloomberg reported Thursday."
 

riven

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One should never wish for an air-crash but corporate manslaughter is a terrible crime..


"American Airlines has a plan for convincing consumers that the Boeing 737 Max aircraft in its fleet are safe for flight: Stick their top brass on them and see how it goes.

American Airlines chief Doug Parker said during a shareholders meeting this week that executives and other staff would take flights on the 737 Max jets before the carrier would ask its customers to do so, Bloomberg reported Thursday."
Which is a silly gesture as a single flight, with the best pilots and monitoring is not representative of the real world conditions.
 

Pabilito

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Which is a silly gesture as a single flight, with the best pilots and monitoring is not representative of the real world conditions.
True .. just the same as simulated flights in a virtual reality simulator are not always representative of real world conditions.
 
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