Ethiopian Airlines B737 crashes

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Pabilito

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I agree too.

However, I think the focus on Boeing and the FAA is allowing other other major failings to go unresolved. For example, go back to the first accident, Lion Air 610. The flight prior to the crash almost ended in disaster. MCAS kicked in and that disaster was only averted thanks to an off duty 3rd pilot sitting in the flightdeck jumpseat suggesting that the auto trim should be disconnected. It seems that how that major incident was dealt with post flight was blatantly wrong. The captain seems to have reported it as a relatively minor problem. Thereafter that aircraft should not have been released for service by the engineers, nor accepted for service by the captain of flight 610. It seems to me that there ma also be a major corporate culture problem in Lion Air.

When I saw the CEO of Ethiopian strongly defending his pilots it should naturally make me feel positive about him.....but it doesn’t.
The root cause was Boeings profit motivated decision to mount an oversized heavy engine on an incompatible airframe thereby creating a dangerous inherent instability under certain conditions. Everything else is just consequential and flows from that root cause.

Up to this aircraft designs have been continuously improving in terms of safety. Good engineering practices demand that designs allow as much as possible for human failings and imperfect operating circumstances.

A well designed aircraft should be capable of been flown safely by a less than average pilot on a bad day.. if we start creating complex designs that can only be flown safely by top class pilots from top class airlines then global air safety will deteriorate sharply.
 


Nebuchadnezzar

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The root cause was Boeings profit motivated decision to mount an oversized heavy engine on an incompatible airframe thereby creating a dangerous inherent instability under certain conditions. Everything else is just consequential and flows from that root cause.

Up to this aircraft designs have been continuously improving in terms of safety. Good engineering practices demand that designs allow as much as possible for human failings and imperfect operating circumstances.

A well designed aircraft should be capable of been flown safely by a less than average pilot on a bad day.. if we start creating complex designs that can only be flown safely by top class pilots from top class airlines then global air safety will deteriorate sharply.
The less than average pilot of today is of a lower standard than of 30 years ago. Their ability to cope with unexpected events, beyond the ‘normal’ menu of faults, particularly when automation fails, is an issue that needs to be addressed. There are various examples. Did you notice the recently released report of the Easyjet first officer who had some sort of breakdown during approach into Glasgow? He left the flight deck during final approach. Not the right stuff.

It’s not just flightcrew, and not just non USA/European airlines(eg Easyjet and Air France).

The line engineers at Lionair and Ethiopian also did not abide by their professional standards. The flight operations managers at those airlines likewise, and other senior management also.

Commercial pressure affects manufacturers but also airlines too.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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Boeing are not just responding with engineering solutions. They are also addressing flightcrew training.

“While most changes would be within Boeing, the most visible ones to industry are likely to stem from the recommendation to “re-examine flight deck design and operation.” The committee examined global flight crew certification training requirements, and “what we saw is that they vary significantly,” … partnering with airlines and others in the industry to re-examine assumptions around flight deck design and operation.’

“Boeing’s work would extend into training, both a key element for the safe operation of its products and, through its growing services business, a promising revenue-generator.”

https://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/boeing-adding-safety-oversight-will-examine-flight-deck-design
 

Pabilito

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The less than average pilot of today is of a lower standard than of 30 years ago. Their ability to cope with unexpected events, beyond the ‘normal’ menu of faults, particularly when automation fails, is an issue that needs to be addressed. There are various examples.
Nonetheless air travel is considerably safer than it was 30 years ago so the improvements in safety are obviously down to improved designs, engineering, maintenance and operating procedures.

Did you notice the recently released report of the Easyjet first officer who had some sort of breakdown during approach into Glasgow? He left the flight deck during final approach. Not the right stuff.
In fairness, that pilot became mentally ill and illness shouldn’t be conflated with competence.. he could well be a fantastic pilot in the full of his health.. anyone of us could be struck by mental illness at any time.. Anyway, one pilot is sufficient to fly a plane and the second pilot is really only there for redundancy in the event that one of them becomes incapacitated as happened in this case. Credit to that pilot for removing himself from the cockpit instead of becoming a liability during the landing.. he must have been aware that he was potentially jeopardising his career.

That said some of the recent air accidents such as the German Wings deliberate crash and the MH370 disappearance seem to be also down to pilot mental illness.. It seems that far more attention needs to be paid to Pilot mental health..
 
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Baron von Biffo

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More problems for Boeing.


For what it's worth, they claim that this issue doesn't affect the 737 Stuka Max.
 

Pabilito

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More problems for Boeing.


For what it's worth, they claim that this issue doesn't affect the 737 Stuka Max.
As far as I know the Ryanair fleet is almost exclusively that same 737NG -800 model.. the 4 Pickle Forks are basically the main structural components that secure the wings to the body of the plane.. yikes!
 

artfoley56

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gijoe

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Nothing that a Ryanair 99c sale for flights on MAX planes would not solve......Boeing to subsidise them......
 

Pabilito

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might get through FAA, but no way itll get through EASA, especially after the airbus tariffs.
Unfortunately you could be correct about the EASA’s response in light of the Airbus tariffs..

The MAX disaster was the result of political\economic interference with safety issues and should the EU\EASA respond in kind by not certifying the MAX on solely and purely safety grounds then we’re on a very slippery slope as regards air safety.
 

cobra

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dont do twittering nonsense
As far as I know the Ryanair fleet is almost exclusively that same 737NG -800 model.. the 4 Pickle Forks are basically the main structural components that secure the wings to the body of the plane.. yikes!
Yep. A couple of ryr 800's already headed for picklle fork replacement in Victorville
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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Lion Air 610 final report released today....but it seems to be unavailable online. From what others have who have seen the report have quoted it sounds like Lion Air should be grounded. The disregard for basic procedures shown by their pilots, engineers and management is astounding.....

1. That on its penultimate flight the flightcrew struggled to maintain control of the aircraft after activation of MCAS.

2. Following this flight the Captain made a brief technical log entry regarding the flight control difficulties.....he failed to detail how the anti stall stick shaker was active throughout the flight(indeed his decision to continue the flight to destination is very questionable). However, he did raise an Air Safety Report and contacted a senior LionAir pilot manager to highlight the defect. The engineers failed to adequately investigate the reported flight control problem. This aircraft should not have been released to service the following day until a major investigation has been carried out by the airlines line engineers.

3. 31 pages were missing from this aircrafts maintenance log within the previous month.....ie large portions of the maintenance and service record of this aircraft were missing.

4. The Captain on fatal flight 610 is recorded on CVR as telling the first officer that he was suffering from the flu.

Boeing and the FAA are the primary culprits however the are other culprits out there who want the Americans to take all the blame. Lion Air corporate culture was a significant factor in this disaster.
 
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cozzy121

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Looks like boeing want to cram even more poor souls into their death-machines..


" At a low-key ceremony at its factory in Renton, Washington, attended mainly by employees, Boeing released the 737 Max 10, the largest version of the Max yet.
The Max 10 seats a maximum of 230 passengers, around 30 more than the Max 8, the aircraft model involved in the two crashes that killed a total of 346 people."
 

cozzy121

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Hopefully this delay will be extended..


"The return of Boeing’s 737 Max appears to be slipping. Again.
The plane has been grounded since March after two deadly crashes that killed 346 people. It has disrupted the global aviation industry and plunged Boeing into the biggest crisis the aerospace giant has ever faced.
Yet today, after more than eight months of intensive work by Boeing and aviation regulators, the timing of the return of the 737 Max appears more precarious than ever.
While Boeing has said publicly that it expects the Federal Aviation Administration to begin the process of ungrounding the plane this year, that now appears unlikely, according to a government official familiar with the process. Instead, it is increasingly likely that the grounding will continue into 2020, given the series of tests Boeing must complete before the regulator clears the plane to fly."
 


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