EU citizens, the ECJ and a historical irony.

Wascurito

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Many British people object to the EU's demands that the RCJ should continue to have jurisdiction over EU citizens in the UK (a concept known as extraterritoriality) post-Brexit. They claim that this mean that EU citizens living in the UK wil be a "privileged caste with superior rights".

This is precisely what the UK imposed on countries like China and Siam (now Thailand) in the 19th century. Old sauce for the gander? Perhaps not but there is an interesting historical irony there.
 
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Wascurito

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The Bowring Treaty gave similar legal privileges to British people in Siam, now Thailand. It was very annoying for the Thais and they fought hard to have these privileges revoked.

I wonder did John Bowring ever imagine that his own country, the UK would be facing similar pressures to allow foreigners such an exceptional legal status on British soil.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Bowring-Treaty
 

Eire1976

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The British will do whatever they are allowed to get away with
 

McTell

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No
It seems like total eejitry, as the ECJ doesn't hold sway over those involved in our lives if any of us goes and works in america.

Or anywhere else in the world for that matter.
 

Tribal

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Ultimately the assumption would be that if EU citizens aren't covered by the ECJ, then all UK citizens rights in EU member states would have to sorted out by their government on a nation by nation basis.

Given how shíte and incompetent the current muppet show is, if I were a UK citizen not yet eligible for my host nations residency rights I'd be absolutely praying for an EU/UK residency deal.
 

Wascurito

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The British will do whatever they are allowed to get away with
Given the EU's ongoing existential crisis, I don't think that the British will be allowed to get away with anything.
 

ionsniffer

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the more the UK feels guys like erm Guy are forcing them into a corner the better.
being told what to do by some floppy haired fanatic will turn people against the whole eu experiment failure.
 

Wascurito

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It seems like total eejitry, as the ECJ doesn't hold sway over those involved in our lives if any of us goes and works in america.

Or anywhere else in the world for that matter.
Part of it is to keep as much leverage over the British as possible.

How and ever, I can see the point to some extent. If a British company took on 100 people from other EU countries in e.g. 2013, there would have been a very valid assumption by those 100 employees that they'd be treated equally and allowed all the privileges afforded to EU citizens in other countries.

The EU is basically saying that Brexit shouldn't prejudice that in any way. It's not the fault of the 100 employees that the UK voted to leave and they shouldn't have to suffer because of it.
 

Wascurito

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the more the UK feels guys like erm Guy are forcing them into a corner the better.
being told what to do by some floppy haired fanatic will turn people against the whole eu experiment failure.
Well, they're leaving so it doesn't matter.

I just find it ironic that they're on the receiving end of treatment they've meted out to other countries in the past.
 

Se0samh

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Part of it is to keep as much leverage over the British as possible.

How and ever, I can see the point to some extent. If a British company took on 100 people from other EU countries in e.g. 2013, there would have been a very valid assumption by those 100 employees that they'd be treated equally and allowed all the privileges afforded to EU citizens in other countries.

The EU is basically saying that Brexit shouldn't prejudice that in any way. It's not the fault of the 100 employees that the UK voted to leave and they shouldn't have to suffer because of it.


It's not our fault either..........bloody English........:rolleyes:
 

owedtojoy

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Guy Verhofstadt must have worked in a bath-house in a previous life. Whilst it's not really part of his role, he has quite a talent for pouring cold water - specifically on the overly-brexuberant statements of British politicians regarding their country's negotiations to leave the European Union. And he was at it again yesterday, slamming as "inadequate" the latest proposals from the UK government on the rights of EU citizens living there post-Brexit.

What lies at the heart of the current impasse is the insistence by the European Union that the European Court of Justice (ECJ) should continue to have jurisdiction over EU citizens in the UK (a concept known as extraterritoriality) post-Brexit. I can only imagine how galling this must be for Britons that their legal system is held to be so untrustworthy by greasy continentals who some say are want EU citizens living in the UK to be a "privileged caste with superior rights". However, the UK is by far the weaker partner in these negotiations and it's within the EU's power to dictate terms or walk away.

We need only go back some 180 years to find another example of international negotiations involving extraterritoriality and the UK. In the early 1840s, the British were a growing power in south and east Asia. Finding the Chinese Empire to be in an enfeebled state, they started throwing their weight around, bullying the Chinese into a series of agreements that the Chinese refer to even today as The Unequal Treaties. Other western powers did likewise and it began what for the Chinese was a long period of national humiliation. One of these treaties was The Treaty of the Bogue, imposed on the Chinese following a battle of the same name in 1843.

The terms of the treaty granted extensive rights to British subjects in southern and eastern China, including the right not to be subject to Chinese law, to be tried under British law in British courts on Chinese territory. Of course, no such privilege was granted to Chinese people in British territory. The imperial game is not a fair and equal one.

There won't be any EU galleons sailing up the Thames to bombard Buckingham Palace but nor will British people in EU countries be able to claim extraterritoriality from local courts in Ireland, France, Spain, Greece etc. Marx did allegedly say that history has a habit of repeating herself, once as tragedy and later as farce. This latter issue might not be a farce but many will find in it an interesting irony.
Other European countries, like France and Germany, and later Japan, also gained large concessions in China. Had history continued on its course, China will eventually have been absorbed into one European Empire like the Mughal Empire was destroyed in India. Or it would have been carved up like Africa.

Japan successfully resisted granting extraterritorial rights to European countries by guaranteeing them a high standard of justice in their courts, though foreigners were generally hated.
 

Wascurito

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Other European countries, like France and Germany, and later Japan, also gained large concessions in China. Had history continued on its course, China will eventually have been absorbed into one European Empire like the Mughal Empire was destroyed in India. Or it would have been carved up like Africa.

Japan successfully resisted granting extraterritorial rights to European countries by guaranteeing them a high standard of justice in their courts, though foreigners were generally hated.
The Japanese seemed to be better at modernizing their country. Also, Japan was very united and homogenous so there were no local squabbles that westerners could use to get a toehold by taking one side or the other.
 

Wascurito

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Ultimately the assumption would be that if EU citizens aren't covered by the ECJ, then all UK citizens rights in EU member states would have to sorted out by their government on a nation by nation basis.

Given how shíte and incompetent the current muppet show is, if I were a UK citizen not yet eligible for my host nations residency rights I'd be absolutely praying for an EU/UK residency deal.
That's the imbalance in this relationship. The EU will demand privileges for its citizens living in the EU. UK citizens in the EU will have to suck it up and deal with being under the jurisdiction of local courts.
 

McTell

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No
Part of it is to keep as much leverage over the British as possible.

How and ever, I can see the point to some extent. If a British company took on 100 people from other EU countries in e.g. 2013, there would have been a very valid assumption by those 100 employees that they'd be treated equally and allowed all the privileges afforded to EU citizens in other countries.

The EU is basically saying that Brexit shouldn't prejudice that in any way. It's not the fault of the 100 employees that the UK voted to leave and they shouldn't have to suffer because of it.

Fair enough, but if that employer had a contract with an EU client that is ended by new high EU import taxes, leading to the 100 staff being laid off, are we saying that the ECJ will order someone to pay something to the 100?

But not to the employer? Sauce for the goose and all that.

If we want the UK to pay 100 Bn to leave, that surely is the end of that, everyone should be aiming for a clean break plus low trade costs on the "other side".
 

ionsniffer

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Well, they're leaving so it doesn't matter.

I just find it ironic that they're on the receiving end of treatment they've meted out to other countries in the past.
the UK is just the beginning. keep verasshat in the limelight and more will wake up to the fact they're being run by egotist headbangers.
 

Wascurito

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the UK is just the beginning. keep verasshat in the limelight and more will wake up to the fact they're being run by egotist headbangers.
Brexit is actually uniting the EU, 27 against 1.

The Catalunya/Spain situation is a lot more likely to cause divisions than Brexit.
 


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