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EU holding a gun to our heads


Disillusioned democrat

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Mar 16, 2010
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The lead story in the Sunday Times paints a somewhat dismal picture of the EU's attitude to Irish democracy - no surprise really following Lisbon, I suppose. Basically, rather than backing the obvious solution - that Ireland should have an election to make sure the Irish people get to choose how we want to solve the problem, they're weighing in behind FF and warning the opposition leaders that they need to be seen to support the 2010 - 2014 budget. I also suspect that once a 4 year budget is "agreed" FF will arrive at the conclusion that it's their "duty" to go the constitutionally allowed 7 year term to deliver the consensus budget, and buy their way to 2014 by offering the back benchers and independents another guarenteed 2 years in office with the slim chance of a turn-around in the meantime and another 2 years to re-write history.
 

hmmm

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Oct 4, 2006
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We only have to do what the EU insists if we continue to borrow stupid amounts of money. We've destroyed our economy all on our own.
 

Twin Towers

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The divil you know, FF are seen as Vichy collaborators to wring Ireland's neck for them.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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Sunday Times - "The EU has warned the government and opposition parties that there must be political consensus on budget measures .

IMO such a budget becomes "our budget" and may be percieved by some as a re-newed mandate for FF to stay in power when it is anything but.
 
M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

Read it. The fupping cheek of them. Will Labour and FG toe the line though?

It was followed later on with an article about how, even with consensus across all political parties, the markets could return and demand more cuts. Basically a damned if you do and damned if you don't kind of piece.
 

hiding behind a poster

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Joined
Mar 8, 2005
Messages
48,276
The lead story in the Sunday Times paints a somewhat dismal picture of the EU's attitude to Irish democracy - no surprise really following Lisbon, I suppose. Basically, rather than backing the obvious solution - that Ireland should have an election to make sure the Irish people get to choose how we want to solve the problem, they're weighing in behind FF and warning the opposition leaders that they need to be seen to support the 2010 - 2014 budget. I also suspect that once a 4 year budget is "agreed" FF will arrive at the conclusion that it's their "duty" to go the constitutionally allowed 7 year term to deliver the consensus budget, and buy their way to 2014 by offering the back benchers and independents another guarenteed 2 years in office with the slim chance of a turn-around in the meantime and another 2 years to re-write history.
Wrong on two fronts. Firstly, the EU aren't holding a gun to our heads because of their attitude to democracy, but we've put ourselves in the position where ANYONE who might lend us money can hold a gun to our heads - because we're effectively bankrupt, having made a complete dog's breakfast of managing our money.
Secondly, this Dail can't run for 7 years - it was elected under the existing law, which limits it to a 5-year term. Even if legislation was passed tomorrow extending the Dail term, in line with the constitutional provision, to seven years, that legislation would only take effect in the NEXT Dail.
 

hiding behind a poster

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Mar 8, 2005
Messages
48,276
Read it. The fupping cheek of them. Will Labour and FG toe the line though?

It was followed later on with an article about how, even with consensus across all political parties, the markets could return and demand more cuts. Basically a damned if you do and damned if you don't kind of piece.
Shock horror - people who lend money won't lend money unless they feel they'll get it back. What's new there?
 

Breadan O'Connor

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Joined
Jun 3, 2007
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1,242
The lead story in the Sunday Times paints a somewhat dismal picture of the EU's attitude to Irish democracy - no surprise really following Lisbon, I suppose. Basically, rather than backing the obvious solution - that Ireland should have an election to make sure the Irish people get to choose how we want to solve the problem, they're weighing in behind FF and warning the opposition leaders that they need to be seen to support the 2010 - 2014 budget. I also suspect that once a 4 year budget is "agreed" FF will arrive at the conclusion that it's their "duty" to go the constitutionally allowed 7 year term to deliver the consensus budget, and buy their way to 2014 by offering the back benchers and independents another guarenteed 2 years in office with the slim chance of a turn-around in the meantime and another 2 years to re-write history.

I saw that story.

Ollie Rehn, I think, was quoted saying that Ireland must regain the confidence of the financial markets-and we can only do that by making savage cuts supported by all political parties.

It seems the unspoken agenda here is that the EU do not want Ireland to tap the EFSF bailout money. If Ireland got the money then it would start a domino effect with the other PIGS lining up to get it also. The euro would lose all credibility with so much bailout happening.

So instead Ireland will be forced to make huge cuts supported by all political parties. And then we will see if the markets are still willing to lend in the new year.
 
M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

Wrong on two fronts. Firstly, the EU aren't holding a gun to our heads because of their attitude to democracy, but we've put ourselves in the position where ANYONE who might lend us money can hold a gun to our heads - because we're effectively bankrupt, having made a complete dog's breakfast of managing our money.
Secondly, this Dail can't run for 7 years - it was elected under the existing law, which limits it to a 5-year term. Even if legislation was passed tomorrow extending the Dail term, in line with the constitutional provision, to seven years, that legislation would only take effect in the NEXT Dail.
Jesus, Ireland must owe Ollie a fortune so. :roll:

We can't ship up so will FG ship us out of the € or continue to toe the line?
 

hiding behind a poster

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Jesus, Ireland must owe Ollie a fortune so. :roll:

We can't ship up so will FG ship us out of the € or continue to toe the line?
Leaving the Euro would be an even bigger disaster, as most of our national debt, along with the vast majority of personal debt, is denoted in Euro. A new Irish currency would substantially depreciate in value immediately, which would massively increase the cost of servicing every mortgage in the country, at the same time as the interest bill on the national debt rockets. That causes a run on Irish banks, resulting in the Bank Guarantee being activated, resulting in, to put it simply, The End.
 
M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

Leaving the Euro would be an even bigger disaster, as most of our national debt, along with the vast majority of personal debt, is denoted in Euro. A new Irish currency would substantially depreciate in value immediately, which would massively increase the cost of servicing every mortgage in the country, at the same time as the interest bill on the national debt rockets. That causes a run on Irish banks, resulting in the Bank Guarantee being activated, resulting in, to put it simply, The End.
End the guarantee and redenominate the debt.
 

oggy

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Oct 28, 2009
Messages
8,958
Who loosened the purse strings with the flow of credit and low interest rates ? The EU is holding the gun to its own head afraid the Irish will blow the whistle about the real culprits. Why are the banks so arrogant, because they are taking the rap for decisions made against their will and are being told to stay silent !
 

west'sawake

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Sep 15, 2008
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We only have to do what the EU insists if we continue to borrow stupid amounts of money. We've destroyed our economy all on our own.
And I suppose the madness of a one size fits all interest rate, monetary policy, exchange rate, and currency, courtesy of the daft Euro EMU project had nothing to do with our troubles at all. It really makes me so angry that those who gave us such a failure are now putting the proverbial gun to our heads, and the slavish sycophants that are FF, FG, Labour and the Greens are going along with it, well I suppose they have no choice seeing as they would have to eat their own words and admit the whole mad enterprise has been a failure.

Time for this nation to get up off its knees and stop bowing to those who have failed us, miserably.
 

Clanrickard

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Apr 25, 2008
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33,045
Jesus, Ireland must owe Ollie a fortune so. :roll:

We can't ship up so will FG ship us out of the € or continue to toe the line?
We don't owe the EU anyhting. We are borrowing from the ECB which ids nothing to do with Ollie Rehn. I am sick and tired of people mixing up the two.
 

Cassandra Syndrome

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Aug 23, 2009
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Yet another thread were the pathetic fanatical Eurotrons who haven't a clue about time preferences and time discounting theories adopt the pretense of knowledge and blame the Irish people for being bankrupt, when it was clearly too low of interest rates for too long set artificially outside of our control.

I wouldn't give them the dignity of saying its just cognitve dissonance, its just simply, they are morons.
 

Cassandra Syndrome

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And I suppose the madness of a one size fits all interest rate, monetary policy, exchange rate, and currency, courtesy of the daft Euro EMU project had nothing to do with our troubles at all. It really makes me so angry that those who gave us such a failure are now putting the proverbial gun to our heads, and the slavish sycophants that are FF, FG, Labour and the Greens are going along with it, well I suppose they have no choice seeing as they would have to eat their own words and admit the whole mad enterprise has been a failure.

Time for this nation to get up off its knees and stop bowing to those who have failed us, miserably.
+1

Nail on the head.
 

hiding behind a poster

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Mar 8, 2005
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48,276
And I suppose the madness of a one size fits all interest rate, monetary policy, exchange rate, and currency, courtesy of the daft Euro EMU project had nothing to do with our troubles at all. It really makes me so angry that those who gave us such a failure are now putting the proverbial gun to our heads, and the slavish sycophants that are FF, FG, Labour and the Greens are going along with it, well I suppose they have no choice seeing as they would have to eat their own words and admit the whole mad enterprise has been a failure.

Time for this nation to get up off its knees and stop bowing to those who have failed us, miserably.
If you want a proper discussion, try not gratuitously insulting the people you want to debate with. After that, address the issue of fiscal policy - because its notable that most of the posters here who insist that an EU-imposed monetary policy is at the root of all our ills, continually ignore three crucial points:

1) Our government had full control of fiscal policy, and could have used those policy levers to mitigate the effects of cheap credit. Instead they did the reverse, taking policy decisions that exacerbated those effects.

2) We wouldn't have had control of monetary policy anyway, Euro membership or not. With Euro interest rates so low, an Ireland outside the Euro would have had to drop rates anyway, as an excessive rate relative to Euro rates would have sent our currency soaring, which would destroy our export sector. And at that time, the Celtic Tiger was still driven by export competitiveness, rather than by us selling houses to each other with borrowed money. So we'd have had to reduce rates anyway. Furthermore, small countries don't really control their monetary policy - they do in theory, but they lack the financial muscle to back their decisions if the markets disagree with them.

3) The assumption is continually made that, had we had control of monetary policy, our government would have used those levers in the national interest. Which is a load of you-know-what. They used fiscal policy to buy elections, they'd have done exactly the same with monetary policy, and we the people would have rewarded them for doing so, just like we did on the fiscal side.

So maybe instead of dodging the discussion by resorting to calling people "slavish sycophants", you could actually address the fact that plenty of posters are making valid points about why we're in the mess we're in. Because blaming Euro membership is just an easy cop-out, one that ignores our own culpability in our own mess, but can be used to follow one's own agenda, and saves the need for addressing facts.
 

hiding behind a poster

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Joined
Mar 8, 2005
Messages
48,276
Yet another thread were the pathetic fanatical Eurotrons who haven't a clue about time preferences and time discounting theories adopt the pretense of knowledge and blame the Irish people for being bankrupt, when it was clearly too low of interest rates for too long set artificially outside of our control.

I wouldn't give them the dignity of saying its just cognitve dissonance, its just simply, they are morons.
Two words. Fiscal Policy.
 
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