EU Law and unemployed migrants

goosebump

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Can someone clarify the following?

I met a Polish guy the other day who has been on Unemployment Benefit/Assistance for 1 year.

My understanding of the Free Movement of Persons is that it entitles EU citizens to reside in another EU state while they are working, including for a reasonable time while they are looking for work, and that EU case law would suggest that 6 months is a reasonable time when it comes to looking for work.

Obviously, no state is compelled deport a worker who is not working, but surely it is within the gift of member states to seek repatriation of EU nationals after 1 year?

Is there a different rule in respect of a an EU national who comes here and spends 6 months looking for work, and say, an EU national who has worked here for several years and who has been made redundant (i.e. they have paid PRSI).

Is the State legally entitled to deport EU nationals at any stage after they have been working here, even if they are unemployed for several years?.
 


Twin Towers

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Can't see why they would go home voluntarily and haven't heard of any being deported on grounds of their now being a burden to the state.

I guess we're stuck with them as we're stuck with anymore that choose to arrive. Sure we can keep borrowing, we ain't quite bankrupt yet.
 

readmylips

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I have never seen any country deporting an immigrant long term immigrant for a reasons of economic down turn, i mean get over it.
 

Twin Towers

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Most countries that have temporary labour shortages import workers on the proviso that they return home if they are to become a burden on the state.

Kinda sensible I know but we're different. We're the thick paddy's.

Ah shure it'll be grand :eek:
 

goosebump

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I have never seen any country deporting an immigrant long term immigrant for a reasons of economic down turn, i mean get over it.
There are several ECJ cases where EU Nationals have been refused Residency Permits on the grounds that they have not secured employment.

However, these relate to people who never worked in a host country, rather than people who have moved from being employed to being unemployed.

Its a simple question of law.

The issue probably hasn't arisen before given low levels of unemployment, but I imagine that such a case will arise before too long.
 

locke

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So how does it work for all the Northern Europeans who retire to Spain? Obviously, they're allowed to, because they're there, but they also aren't exactly going to be looking for work.

Is the requirement to be able to support oneself rather than work?
 

seabhcan

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So how does it work for all the Northern Europeans who retire to Spain? Obviously, they're allowed to, because they're there, but they also aren't exactly going to be looking for work.

Is the requirement to be able to support oneself rather than work?
Any such rules are fairly unenforceable anyway. Within Schengen its effectively impossible to deport someone to another Schengen state even if you wanted to - because there is nothing preventing them from returning.
 

forest

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if you an EU citizen you can live in amy country in the EU you want working or not working
If you happen to win the lotto and move to Spain and never work again fine
If you move to Germany and work for 2€/hr fine
 

Brenny

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goosebump EU Law and unemployed migrants

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Can someone clarify the following?

I met a Polish guy the other day who has been on Unemployment Benefit/Assistance for 1 year.

My understanding of the Free Movement of Persons is that it entitles EU citizens to reside in another EU state while they are working, including for a reasonable time while they are looking for work, and that EU case law would suggest that 6 months is a reasonable time when it comes to looking for work.

Obviously, no state is compelled deport a worker who is not working, but surely it is within the gift of member states to seek repatriation of EU nationals after 1 year?

Is there a different rule in respect of a an EU national who comes here and spends 6 months looking for work, and say, an EU national who has worked here for several years and who has been made redundant (i.e. they have paid PRSI).

Is the State legally entitled to deport EU nationals at any stage after they have been working here, even if they are unemployed for several years?.
They can't come over here and just sign on if that's what you're saying they have to work for either two years I think before they can claim unemployment benefit. I'm not sure from your post if you're aware of this or not. That was legislation that the Dail passed shortly before the accession states were admitted. Here's a draft of the bill from 2004, hope the link works I'm not great at this sort of stuff.

http://www.nccri.ie/pdf/4thMarchEUaccession.pdf


There were many cases of lads coming over here and getting into desperate trouble cause they couldn't get a job and didn't have money to go home, they still couldn't sign on though. I worked with a Polish girl in Dell who hurt her back after working in Ireland for about 6 months and I remember there was some problem with her claiming welfare.

It gets tricky though if a person hasn't worked here two years but has lost their job, the EU told Ireland back in 2006 that if this happens they have to be entitled to welfare benefit.

Migrant workers can now claim benefits - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie

Sorry if you already knew this, it wasn't clear from your post. Here's what Hanafin had to say on the subject in 2008 and what the indo then said about it,

New crackdown on welfare fraud may violate EU law - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie

"The proposal to compel newly unemployed Irish and foreign workers to sign for their dole payments at their local post office each week is unenforceable under European legislation protecting the right of social welfare recipients to freedom of movement within the EU.

At the time of her announcement, Ms Hanafin made much of the fact that her department had saved €1.5m following an investigation of 2,000 people on the Live Register who were not living in Ireland, or were not actively seeking work here.

The minister further claimed that that those suspected of continuing to claim social welfare in Ireland, but who had left the country, could be prosecuted under EU welfare rules.

Ms Hanafin neglected, however, to make reference to EU Regulation 1408/71 which allows any person in any member state receiving unemployment benefit to travel to another EU country in search of work, without losing entitlement to their original benefit.

In fairness to the minister, a number of conditions do attach to payment of Irish social welfare to claimants living in another EU state.

According to the legislation, the claimant is obliged to remain in Ireland for a period of four weeks after they become unemployed to look for work before leaving.

After that period has elapsed, and having travelled to the other EU country, the claimant is then required to register with the relevant welfare authority there."
 

seabhcan

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if you an EU citizen you can live in amy country in the EU you want working or not working
If you happen to win the lotto and move to Spain and never work again fine
If you move to Germany and work for 2€/hr fine
Actually, the letter of the law does give a 6 month limit after which you must 'register' if national law requires. There are laws in different countries that prevent registration under certain conditions. So the law is fuzzy on the issue.
 

evercloserunion

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Aye, there are EU measures in place to safeguard against benefit-shopping. You can't just move somewhere to sign on, you move for work and if you work there for long enough you acquire a right of residence which allows you to stay there to sign on after work ceases. His right to stay here would depend on how long he was working here, though I am not sure of the specifics.

Check out Directive 2004/38/EC on the right to move and reside freely - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

setanta

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EU natonals cannot be deported because they become unemployed. That applies whether it's unemployed Polish plumbers living in Ireland, or unemployed Irish call centre workers living in France. Their qualification for welfare benefits, including unemployment assistance, is dependent on the rules applying in each member state.
 

Lthse

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They can't come over here and just sign on if that's what you're saying they have to work for either two years I think before they can claim unemployment benefit. I'm not sure from your post if you're aware of this or not. That was legislation that the Dail passed shortly before the accession states were admitted. Here's a draft of the bill from 2004, hope the link works I'm not great at this sort of stuff.

http://www.nccri.ie/pdf/4thMarchEUaccession.pdf
This was overuled by the Free Movement of People Directive. They are entitled to Jobseekers Benefit after one year and Jobseekers Allowance if they've worked less than a year.


Sorry if you already knew this, it wasn't clear from your post. Here's what Hanafin had to say on the subject in 2008 and what the indo then said about it,

New crackdown on welfare fraud may violate EU law - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie

"The proposal to compel newly unemployed Irish and foreign workers to sign for their dole payments at their local post office each week is unenforceable under European legislation protecting the right of social welfare recipients to freedom of movement within the EU.

At the time of her announcement, Ms Hanafin made much of the fact that her department had saved €1.5m following an investigation of 2,000 people on the Live Register who were not living in Ireland, or were not actively seeking work here.

The minister further claimed that that those suspected of continuing to claim social welfare in Ireland, but who had left the country, could be prosecuted under EU welfare rules.

Ms Hanafin neglected, however, to make reference to EU Regulation 1408/71 which allows any person in any member state receiving unemployment benefit to travel to another EU country in search of work, without losing entitlement to their original benefit.

In fairness to the minister, a number of conditions do attach to payment of Irish social welfare to claimants living in another EU state.

According to the legislation, the claimant is obliged to remain in Ireland for a period of four weeks after they become unemployed to look for work before leaving.

After that period has elapsed, and having travelled to the other EU country, the claimant is then required to register with the relevant welfare authority there."
My understanding is if they leave the State they can only claim SW for 6 weeks while they look for a job in another State. However if they don't have to sign on it's probably very difficult to keep track of this and there's probably millions of Euros leaving the State fraudulantly.

The whole thing is absurd, we have people here who have worked for less than a year on the dole while self-employed Irish people who've paid taxes for the last 20 years are not automatically entitled. Now it seems people can move back to their home countries and receive the dole from us while their cost of living is half of ours.

It shows once more the competence creep in the EU, now they decide on who should receive our social welfare without us ever handing over that competence. Any assurances about Lisbon are just laughable.
 

Mujaahid

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Can someone clarify the following?

I met a Polish guy the other day who has been on Unemployment Benefit/Assistance for 1 year.

My understanding of the Free Movement of Persons is that it entitles EU citizens to reside in another EU state while they are working, including for a reasonable time while they are looking for work, and that EU case law would suggest that 6 months is a reasonable time when it comes to looking for work.

Obviously, no state is compelled deport a worker who is not working, but surely it is within the gift of member states to seek repatriation of EU nationals after 1 year?

Is there a different rule in respect of a an EU national who comes here and spends 6 months looking for work, and say, an EU national who has worked here for several years and who has been made redundant (i.e. they have paid PRSI).

Is the State legally entitled to deport EU nationals at any stage after they have been working here, even if they are unemployed for several years?.
Repatriation is harsh, however - Ireland should not be required to foot the bill for non-nationals. The onus should be on the EU to provide welfare for non-nationals.
 

Twin Towers

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That was the bunch of baboons in government that got us into this mess and have not a clue how to get us out while making sure they are well provided for themselves.

In a country of 4 million, 100's of thousands were brought here to work and ten's of thousands who had no right to be here were allowed to stay and being handed a grand a month to give for apartments and to Fianna Fail landlords and they are now clogging schools and hospitals while Irish citizens wait suspended on trolleys.

WE NEED A REVOLUTION.
 

Oriel27

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Repatriation is harsh, however - Ireland should not be required to foot the bill for non-nationals. The onus should be on the EU to provide welfare for non-nationals.
what should be done is this, everyone who has worked in the state and has paid PRSI should be entitled to the dole, until it runs out for them.
When you get the dole, it tells you how long your are entitled to get it for.

After that, non-EU nationals should be sent home.
 

goosebump

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Repatriation is harsh, however - Ireland should not be required to foot the bill for non-nationals. The onus should be on the EU to provide welfare for non-nationals.
Let me try and distil this down then:

A person who migrates here can stay for approx. 6 months while they look for work. If they have not found work within 6 months, they have no right to residency.

A person who does find work, and is thereafter made redundant, is entitled to UEB or UEA depending on how long they have worked here.

A person who is on UEB/UEA can leave Ireland and continue to claim UEB/UEA. Measures exist that require this person to register for benefits in their home country (do the authorities in their country then notify us?), but if they do not do this, the Irish State has no way of knowing that they have left, and will continue to pay UEB/UEA, for as long as they are not paying PRSI in Ireland.

It does seem somewhat absurd. You could understand it if we had a common fiscal/tax system in the EU, but otherwise, it seems totally weighted against states that offer generous welfare packages.

If I were campaigning for a No to Lisbon, I wouldn't be talking about CSDP or Commissioners or abortion, I'd be talking about this (even though it has nothing to do with Lisbon).
 

Twin Towers

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It does seem somewhat absurd. You could understand it if we had a common fiscal/tax system in the EU, but otherwise, it seems totally weighted against states that offer generous welfare packages.

National welfare systems were never designed for mass immigration.
 

Lthse

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Let me try and distil this down then:

A person who migrates here can stay for approx. 6 months while they look for work. If they have not found work within 6 months, they have no right to residency.
Not exactly, they are entitled to stay here for 3 months. After that they have to either be working, seeking work, studying or have sufficient resources to remain. We don't have any registration for EU nationals so this is basically irrelevant. They can apply for a FAS course and are entitled to a Training Allowance and all the other SW benefits that come with it.

A person who does find work, and is thereafter made redundant, is entitled to UEB or UEA depending on how long they have worked here.
Yes, though it's now called Jobseekers Allowance/Benefit.

A person who is on UEB/UEA can leave Ireland and continue to claim UEB/UEA. Measures exist that require this person to register for benefits in their home country (do the authorities in their country then notify us?), but if they do not do this, the Irish State has no way of knowing that they have left, and will continue to pay UEB/UEA, for as long as they are not paying PRSI in Ireland.
That's my understanding of it but I may be wrong on this.

It does seem somewhat absurd. You could understand it if we had a common fiscal/tax system in the EU, but otherwise, it seems totally weighted against states that offer generous welfare packages.
It's criminal negligence by our government and I seriously doubt that Irish people working in other Member States would be entitled to all the benefits EU nationals get here after working for a year or less.
 


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