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EU Left tries to suppress immigration debate


FutureTaoiseach

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In another example of the loss of democracy in Europe, the PASDE (Party of Socialists and Democrats in Europe) - the second largest party in the European Parliament - has demanded so-called 'Far Right' parties be excluded from cooperation, coalition or 'implicit support' by all other political parties. This flies in the face of democracy and the right of Europeans to self-determination. It also reflects the Left's frustration at their rejection by European citizens as millions of Europeans reject their open-door attitudes to immigration and the failed ideology of multiculturalism.
EUobserver.com said:
Throwing down the gauntlet to Europe's conservative and liberal parties, some of which have in recent years become less reticent to join coalitions or alliances with nationalist and populist parties, the continent's Socialists have called for a 'cordon sanitaire' around the far-right by the mainstream. The leadership of the Party of European Socialists, the pan-European political party that brings together all European social democratic outfits, on Friday (15 October) adopted new five-point code of conduct on how to act around extreme right parties, which have seen a sharp rise in support in many countries in the wake of the economic crisis.
"Regarding this threat ... all European parties should sign up to our plan to refuse to work with the extreme-right," the party's president and former Danish prime minister Poul Nyrup Rasmussen.
Specifically, the party is calling on mainstream left, right and centre parties to reject any ruling coalitions, electoral alliances or any "implicit support" with far-right parties and to isolate members who break the cordon sanitaire.
In the Netherlands, the new minority government of the conservative-liberal People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD) and the centre-right Christian Democrats enjoys backing from the anti-Islam and anti-immigrant Freedom Party that in the Netherlands in a similar formulation to the parliamentary support the nationalist Danish People's Party provides to the governing minority of the Conservative People's Party and centrist Venstre.
Europe's centre-right, the European People's Party, is currently considering how to react to the call.
"Unfortunately we have seen some mixed signals in recent months," Mr Rasmussen said of the new Dutch coalition's dependence on the far right.
Earlier this month, the PES condemned the centre-right's silence over the development, with the group's general secretary, Philip Cordery, accusing the EPP of "power whatever the cost."
"The European People's Party's reaction to the new Dutch government has shown the true intellectual weakness of the Conservatives in Europe," he said on 4 October in the wake of the Dutch parliamentary pact.
The PES also criticised Wilfred Martens, the president of the EPP, for saying that his party would not work with the far right at the European level while leaving the door open for member parties to do so nationally.
EUobserver was unable to reach Europe's liberals in the European Liberal Democrat and Reform Party for their reaction to the call.
But on Thursday, the group's president, Belgian MEP Annemie Neyts-Uyttebroeck issued her concern at the new Dutch government while not condemning the move.
"What worries me is that this government is depending on the support of a radical right party, to put it mildly. I hope this is not going to push it in a direction I would not like it to go," she told EUobserver.
Socialists themselves have in parts of Europe been known to embrace the far right in order to cobble together a parliamentary majority.
In 2006, the Slovak centre-left, Smer, entered into a coalition with the nationalist Slovak National Party (SNS) and as a result was suspended from membership of the PES and only readmitted in 2008.
The PES also called on all parties to not "take up [the extreme right's] ideas into its political principles or policies."
On Monday, the governor of Bavaria, Horst Seehofer, said Germany should end immigration from Turkey and Arab countries because citizens of these lands allegedly do not "integrate" into German society as well as others.
"It's clear that immigrants from other cultures such as Turkey and Arabic countries have more difficulties. From that I draw the conclusion that we don't need additional immigration from other cultures," Mr Seehofer, of the Christian Social Union, the more conservative sister party of German Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democratic Union, told Focus magazine.
The comments, condemned as "shocking" by Ms Merkel's integration commissioner, Maria Böhmer, come after Bundesbank board member Thilo Sarrazin claimed in a book published in August that German Muslim immigrants were not integrating, that they were less intelligent and that they use more social services than other citizens.
Mr Sarrazin, a member of Germany's centre-left Social Democratic Party (SPD) also said that with their high birth rate, they threatened to overwhelm the ‘native' German population within a few generations.
The SPD has since announced it is considering revoking Mr Sarrazin's party membership.
According to the Berliner Morgenposten, some 18 percent of Germans would vote for his party if he started one.
The country so far has been one of the few European states not to witness a sharp growth in support for far-right parties.
This represents a gross insult to the millions of voters of immigration-control parties and the denial of their rights to political-representation. It also represents a brazen attempt at censorship and interference in the internal-affairs of member states. The Left can't handle rejection and consequently, are lashing out at their opponents.

These demands also recall the failed diplomatic-sanctions against Austria in 2000 after the entry of the Freedom Party into a Coalition-government with the People's Party. The consequence of those sanctions was to increase Euroscepticism in Austria and support for the new government. The ball is now in the Centre-Right EPP and ALDE's court. They should reject the PES demands for a "cordon-sanitaire" around so-called 'Far Right parties'. In any case, the term is in the eye of the beholder. For example, how can:

- A party that is pro gay-marriage and pro-Israel. (Dutch Freedom Party).
- A party that supports a cradle to grave welfare state (Danish People's Party) and the repeal of blasphemy-laws, and is pro-Israel.

Be "Far Right" organisations? My point on them being pro-Israel is to demonstrate that it proves they are not anti-semitic - which removes one element in traditional fascism and so-called 'Far Right' ideology. (I am a staunch critic of Israel and opponent of anti-semitism but my point is that being staunchly pro-Israel and anti-semitism are hardly compatible). Clearly this farce is an arbitrary ploy by the Left to seize power by denying Coalition partners to their Conservative and Libertarian opponents by depriving them of their democratic-rights to represent their supporters in government if necessary. Write to Irish MEPs to demand they oppose this measure.

These outbursts cannot be separated from the rejection of the Left in:
- The Swedish General Election on 19th September 2010 in which the Sweden Democrats entered Parliament for the first time. The Social Democrats had their worst showing since 1914 at just over 30%.
- The Viennese local elections on 11th October where the Social Democrats lost their overall majority (falling from 49% to 44%) and the Freedom Party gained 28% of the vote and more than doubled their seats from 13 to 28.
- The victory of the CDU-FPD Coalition in German on 27th September 2009 where the SPD fell from 34% to 23% - its worst losses in its history.
 
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PAD1OH

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you're really going all out to protect your far right idols.

are you all sad and lonely because there isn't a far right party in ireland?
 

Panopticon

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For example, how can:

- A party that is pro gay-marriage and pro-Israel. (Dutch Freedom Party).
- A party that supports a cradle to grave welfare state (Danish People's Party) and the repeal of blasphemy-laws, and is pro-Israel.

Be "Far Right" organisations?
Basically, it's very simple. If they consider white people (e.g. Israelis) to be better than non-whites, they are far right. By your logic, no Jew can be on the far-right, yet what would we call Yisrael Beitenyu?

The far right is no longer about murdering Jews, it is now about driving out black people and Muslims. And you subscribe to their agenda in its entirety.
 

FutureTaoiseach

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Basically, it's very simple. If they consider white people (e.g. Israelis) to be better than non-whites, they are far right. By your logic, no Jew can be on the far-right, yet what would we call Yisrael Beitenyu?

The far right is no longer about murdering Jews, it is now about driving out black people and Muslims. And you subscribe to their agenda in its entirety.
I agree that what Israel is doing constitutes colonial-aggression. The point I'm making is that in the European context, fascism pertains partly to anti-semitism, and that therefore, opposing anti-semitism is partial proof that European parties are not 'Far Right' or fascist.
PAD10H said:
you're really going all out to protect your far right idols.

are you all sad and lonely because there isn't a far right party in ireland?
I don't want a Far Right party but I do want an immigration-control party. The German Left Party's position on immigration-control would - if adopted by the Irish Left - be an improvement on the as it supports immigration-control and hardly constitutes a "Far Right" party. Thilo Sarrazin is also a member of the SPD which proves he is not 'Far Right'. The Left would know more about deportations anyway given the millions deported to Siberia under Joseph Stalin. :roll:
 
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Panopticon

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I agree that what Israel is doing constitutes colonial-aggression. The point I'm making is that in the European context, fascism pertains partly to anti-semitism, and that therefore, opposing anti-semitism is partial proof that European parties are not 'Far Right' or fascist.
No, this is really not an acceptable assumption. For that logic to hold, you would have to prove the statement that "all far-right groups are anti-Semitic", or, equivalently, "all pro-Semites are not right-wing extremists". All that you have asserted is that some far-right groups are anti-Semitic, which is true, but not enough.
 

former wesleyan

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- A party that is pro gay-marriage and pro-Israel. (Dutch Freedom Party).
- A party that supports a cradle to grave welfare state (Danish People's Party) and the repeal of blasphemy-laws, and is pro-Israel.

Be "Far Right" organisations? My point on them being pro-Israel is to demonstrate that it proves they are not anti-semitic - which removes one element in traditional fascism and so-called 'Far Right' ideology. (I am a staunch critic of Israel and opponent of anti-semitism but my point is that being staunchly pro-Israel and anti-semitism are hardly compatible).
You're either very gullible or you think that we are. The BNP sticks a Star of David on its website and I'm supposed to be fooled ? Vlaams does the same?
It's called "entryism" and if you can be bothered to look you'll find the various far right factions telling their supporters to cool it..... for now . A quick perusal of Searchlight would do you good.
 
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FutureTaoiseach

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Anything which gives a cold house to BNP types is no bad thing.
The Dutch Freedom Party supports gay marriage and opposes anti-semitism so is hardly a "BNP type". The Danish People's Party have expelled neo-Nazis from the party so ditto. The gross hypocrisy of what the PES are doing is that they make no similar proposals with respect to Communist parties, despite them killing more people than Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Imperial Japan combined. :rolleyes: In any case, in a democracy people have an unfiltered right to vote for who they want and to have that representation respected. The GOP is not considered a fascist party and there is little to separate its utterances on immigration-control with those of Geert Wilders or the Dutch People's Party. Support Free Speech - Oppose Euro-Censorship.
 

Éireann go Brách

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As usual, the far right's attitude to immigration is based on prejudice and ignorance. The fact of the matter is that Europe needs immigrants - not one EU country has a high enough birth rate to sustain its population (with the recent exceptions of Ireland and France, where the higher birth rates are largely due to young immigrants). It has been calculated that the Swiss, for example, will be extinct in 200 years without immigration.

[Are the swiss dying out? Demographic facts and pe... [Gynakol Geburtshilfliche Rundsch. 2005] - PubMed result
If the low birthrate continues for another 200 years

Why not encourage the birth rate to 2.1 from 1.37 problem solved.
They did it in Georgia
Two years after having one of the lowest birth rates in the world, Georgia is enjoying something of a baby boom, following an intervention from the country's most senior cleric.
BBC NEWS | Europe | Church leader sparks Georgian baby boom
GeoStat.Ge

This seems a better solution to me.
Such is the economic benefit of many immigrants that have came to europe
that your argument is debatable and is based on ignorance of the realities of life

Look at Norway for example

Norway.
"An ever growing group of Third World immigrants is dependent on welfare. A study by Tyra Ekhaugen of the Frisch Centre for Economic Research and the University of Oslo concluded that immigration has increased the pressure on the welfare state, because many immigrants do not join the tax-paying part of the population.Third World immigrants are, the study showed, recipients of social security benefits at a rate ten times that of native Norwegians — destroying the liberal argument used by pro-immigration politicians in Norway that immigration was necessary to maintain the social welfare state.
More than half of all social security benefits in the city of Oslo are spent on non-Western immigrants. Immigrants from Africa have the highest unemployment rate, with official figures in 2005 showing a black unemployment rate of 17.5 percent.
Immigrants from Asia had an unemployment rate of 12.3 percent,
The average unemployment rate amongst native Norwegians was 2.4 percent.
 

Chi019

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Basically, it's very simple. If they consider white people (e.g. Israelis) to be better than non-whites, they are far right. By your logic, no Jew can be on the far-right, yet what would we call Yisrael Beitenyu?

The far right is no longer about murdering Jews, it is now about driving out black people and Muslims. And you subscribe to their agenda in its entirety.
Can you explain why European countries would want to increase their Muslim populations? Why, particularly, would liberals want that?

BBC NEWS | UK | England | London | Homophobic crime rise in London

Muslim gang attacks gay catwalk model - from Pink News - all the latest gay news from the gay community - Pink News
 

FutureTaoiseach

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As usual, the far right's attitude to immigration is based on prejudice and ignorance. The fact of the matter is that Europe needs immigrants - not one EU country has a high enough birth rate to sustain its population (with the recent exceptions of Ireland and France, where the higher birth rates are largely due to young immigrants). It has been calculated that the Swiss, for example, will be extinct in 200 years without immigration.

[Are the swiss dying out? Demographic facts and pe... [Gynakol Geburtshilfliche Rundsch. 2005] - PubMed result
I reject that thesis. The UN has already published a report (Replacement Migration: Is It a Solution to Declining and Ageing Populations?)debunking the 'population-replacement' theory of immigration in terms of it being necessary to support an ageing-population. In particular, they argue the existing dependent-ratios could be maintain in industrialised countries with a retirement-age of 75. With 40% of the Irish population under the age of 35, it would be substantially lower in Ireland. It is erroneous to lump the youngest society in Europe with an otherwise ageing continent. Garrett Fitzgerald's artcles in the Irish Times acknowledge that Irish birth-rates are close to replacement-levels already.
UN Report (Replacement Migration: Is It a Solution to Declining and Ageing Populations? ) said:
While below-replacement fertility is the major cause of population decline and population ageing, even a sudden sharp increase in fertility in the short to medium term would not substantially alter the situation regarding the potential support ratios. Of course, as was shown earlier in this report, the potential support ratios could be maintained at current levels by increasing the upper limit to the workingage population. In most cases, the upper limit would need to be raised to roughly 75 years. However, if retirement ages remain essentially where they are today, increasing the size of the working-age population through international migration is the only option in the short to medium term to reduce the declines in the potential support ratio.
The report continues by pointing out the unfeasibility of solving the dependent-ratio problem by immigration by pointing out that would requiring migrants and their descendents to constitute between 59% and 99% (!) of national populations by 2050. We certainly cannot provide for them infrastructurally nor assimilate so many newcomners culturally. France and the UK certainly haven't succeeded in doing so -notably with respect to their Muslim populations.
UN Report continued said:
In contrast to the migration streams needed to offset total or working-age population decline, the levels of migration that would be needed to prevent the countries from ageing are of substantially larger magnitudes. By 2050, these larger migration flows would result in populations where the proportion of post-1995 migrants and their descendants would range between 59 per cent and 99 per cent.* Such high levels of migration have not been observed in the past for any of these countries or regions. Moreover, it seems extremely unlikely that such flows could happen in these countries in the foreseeable future. Therefore, it appears inevitable that the populations of the low-fertility countries will age rapidly in the twenty-first century.
The solution, then, is to increase the retirement-age, and compulsory private-pensions, as provided for by the government in recent days. And it avoids the challenges of an increasingly questioned (internationally) multicultural project. Furthermore, immigrants also need pensions, meaning that mass-immigration creates an unaffordability of pension-provision by increasing the dependency-ratio longterm. The solution to the so-called 'pensions-timebomb' is compulsory private-pensions for all citizens and the State's liability would only extend to the very poor, based on means-testing.

BTW, I have nothing against foreign-nationals. I just believe that charity begins at home and that multiculturalism has failed in Britain, Holland, Sweden, and Germany. Accusations of 'racism' are the new McCarthyism, albeit this time from the Left. :roll: I also note with interest that you concede that immigration would not be required in Ireland to pay for pensions because of our high fertility-rates. I assume from your avatar that you are a Labour member. In that context - and if Labour really does represent Irish workers - then that party should abandon the open-borders agenda and the failed ideology of multiculturalism. Pat Rabbitte showed some signs of listening to public-opinion in 2006 following the Irish Ferries Affair but received little or no support for his stance from within the party. The Irish Left would do well to follow the lead of the German Left Party in supporting immigration-controls to preserve worker's-rights and the welfare-state.
 
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Twin Towers

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Actually, that's been tried in several European countries with very low fertility rates - to no avail. For example, very generous financial inducements in Sweden increased fertility rates by a small amount but not by enough to sustain the population. So it might seem obvious in theory, but it doesn't wok in practice.
Must have been pretty damn half hearted attempts.
 

Chi019

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As usual, the far right's attitude to immigration is based on prejudice and ignorance. The fact of the matter is that Europe needs immigrants - not one EU country has a high enough birth rate to sustain its population (with the recent exceptions of Ireland and France, where the higher birth rates are largely due to young immigrants). It has been calculated that the Swiss, for example, will be extinct in 200 years without immigration.

[Are the swiss dying out? Demographic facts and pe... [Gynakol Geburtshilfliche Rundsch. 2005] - PubMed result
The problem is your assumption that populations are interchangeable. You need to select for migrants who will be compatible culturally and able to compete without the need for affirmative action type programmes.
 

Éireann go Brách

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If you are seriously suggesting that the birthrate in Europe could be improved by the intervention of a Patriarch, then I think you are pretty naive. As is observed in the article you linked, it was the economy, stupid.
I has just showing an example of a baby boom in a european country
As you said it was only one factor.

Since 2004 there has been an upward trend in the natural increase of the population of the EU which is due to the moderate increase of the crude birth rate that reached 10.9 births per 1000 inhabitants in 2008, an increase of 0.3 compared with 2007. The increase was observed in all member countries except Germany.

Natalism policies need to be introduced across Europe to address the balance.
This is the future.
 

Twin Towers

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The problem is your assumption that populations are interchangeable. You need to select for migrants who will be compatible culturally and able to compete without the need for affirmative action type programmes.
And if you need a ministry of integration you have admitted you are getting the wrong migrants.
 

Trampas

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The far right is no longer about murdering Jews, it is now about driving out black people and Muslims.


No it isn't; although what it may be about is the selection of immigrants who are likely to make a contribution, rather than those who are more likely to form a disorderly queue at the social welfare office. It may also be about keeping Muslims out; a sensible enough strategy for which Islam is entirely responsible. And by the way, nobody is being "driven" anywhere.
 

Chi019

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Sixteen months of paid maternity and paternity leave at 82% of annual pay. Not exactly half-hearted, is it?
The problem is that the medicine, if you don't select well for migrants, is worse than the ailment of population decline. For instance, if the migrants do poorly academically, then they become a burden on the state and increase crime rates.

The US provides a good example of this with the growing mexican underclass and the decline of California.

National Review Online: Stop Illegals, Save CA : NPR

The Congealing Pot by Jason Richwine - National Review Online
 

ONQ

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More screwing around please.

Donations in box at wall.
 

Chi019

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Economic booms cause baby booms, augmented by the influx of young immigrants. The replacement total fertility rate is 2.1. The EU total fertility rate is 1.5. It's just been back to 2.1 in Ireland over the last couple of years, thanks to immigration (and 20-25% of births in Ireland are to immigrants) but it's starting to fall again.
You're still refusing to acknowledge that the central issue is the nature of the immigrants themselves. For instance, some african countries have fertility rates of over 5 but they're not necessarily places you'd like to move to.
 
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