€9 billion needed over 10 years to fix the Health Service.

Ardillaun

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Coincidentally salaries in those Anglo countries are very high so insanely we end up trying to match their salaries!
But isn’t the anglosphere the market you are competing for doctors in? That’s the reality, surely?
 


Mickeymac

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But isn’t the anglosphere the market you are competing for doctors in? That’s the reality, surely?

Sorry if I sound cruel or uncaring, but, health is the thing that keeps you earning and simple thought tells me it is a good investment to pay for.

No such thing as free health, even the Brit "free" NHS is on the rocks and most folk with good salary go private rather than go on a waiting list which could last years after you are in the ground.
 

Ardillaun

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Sorry if I sound cruel or uncaring, but, health is the thing that keeps you earning and simple thought tells me it is a good investment to pay for.

No such thing as free health, even the Brit "free" NHS is on the rocks and most folk with good salary go private rather than go on a waiting list which could last years after you are in the ground.
So what are you suggesting regarding salaries?
 

ruman

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But isn’t the anglosphere the market you are competing for doctors in? That’s the reality, surely?
Thats like saying Dundalk are competing with Manchester City for footballers. We cant compete on salary no point trying to. Sure the very top will leave for the countries with the highest rewards that's inevitable. Best we can do is improve services and working conditions. All we need are sufficient bog standard doctors. With decent working conditions and training opportunities that will be possible.

In no industry does Ireland pay world leading salaries, nor should it. No idea why the medics think they're different.
 

ruman

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So what are you suggesting regarding salaries?
Is that all that matters?!

The title of this thread is fixing the health service, many including myself believe that increasing salaries is not the most effective way to do that. While you clearly disagree you are not an impartial observer.
 
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Ardillaun

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Is that all that matters?!

The title of this thread is fixing the health service, many including myself believe that increasing salaries is not the most effective way to do that. While you clearly disagree you are not an impartial observer.
None of us are completely impartial. We all come here with our biases.
 

Ardillaun

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Thats like saying Dundalk are competing with Manchester City for footballers. We cant compete on salary no point trying to.
Are the lawyers of Ireland on board in accepting FAI standards of medical expertise?


Sure the very top will leave for the countries with the highest rewards that's inevitable.
That has not been my (anecdotal) experience of other nations. For example, I have rarely encountered physicians from Scandinavia, France or Benelux working in North America. Our tradition of emigration and the pull of the anglosphere pose specific problems for Ireland in this regard.


In no industry does Ireland pay world leading salaries, nor should it. No idea why the medics think they're different.
We pay our top lawyers fairly well to talk to each other at tribunals despite many other barristers desperately needing work. Those shows cost a lot more than they do in many countries. What about FAI standards there? Who would notice the difference, really?
 
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Ardillaun

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Is that all that matters?!

The title of this thread is fixing the health service, many including myself believe that increasing salaries is not the most effective way to do that.
Of course it isn’t all that matters. I don’t think I brought it up.
 
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ruman

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Are the lawyers of Ireland on board in accepting FAI standards of medical expertise?




That has not been my (anecdotal) experience of other nations. For example, I have rarely encountered physicians from Scandinavia, France or Benelux working in North America. Our tradition of emigration and the pull of the anglosphere pose specific problems for Ireland in this regard.




We pay our top lawyers fairly well to talk to each other at tribunals despite many other barristers desperately needing work. Those shows cost a lot more than they do in many countries. What about FAI standards there? Who would notice the difference, really?
Are the lawyers of Ireland on board in accepting FAI standards of medical expertise?




That has not been my (anecdotal) experience of other nations. For example, I have rarely encountered physicians from Scandinavia, France or Benelux working in North America. Our tradition of emigration and the pull of the anglosphere pose specific problems for Ireland in this regard.




We pay our top lawyers fairly well to talk to each other at tribunals despite many other barristers desperately needing work. Those shows cost a lot more than they do in many countries. What about FAI standards there? Who would notice the difference, really?

Yes working conditions are good in those countries as they dont prioritise pay over everthing else, hence little reason to leave.

No idea why you are banging on about lawyers.
 

Ardillaun

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Yes working conditions are good in those countries as they dont prioritise pay over everthing else, hence little reason to leave.
The thing is there are cultural and economic factors at work in Ireland that prioritize income e.g. the exorbitant price of houses in Dublin.

No idea why you are banging on about lawyers.
Firstly, because some of them make an absolute fortune; the hourly tribunal rates have been preposterously high by any standard, so they’re an example of ‘world class’ incomes in Ireland. Secondly, Ireland is a seriously litigious place and I doubt our lawyers will simply agree to let medical standards slip for the good of the country’s finances.
 

ruman

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The thing is there are cultural and economic factors at work in Ireland that prioritize income e.g. the exorbitant price of houses in Dublin.



Firstly, because some of them make an absolute fortune; the hourly tribunal rates have been preposterously high by any standard, so they’re an example of ‘world class’ incomes in Ireland. Secondly, Ireland is a seriously litigious place and I doubt our lawyers will simply agree to let medical standards slip for the good of the country’s finances.
So we should pay consultants more so they can buy nicer houses?! That'll end well.

I did work for a top US attorney for a good few years ( my work was nothing related to the legal profession before u go off on one) i can assure you he was making multiples of what a top one here would.

Again you're trying to blame others for negligence costs. Once again:

1) they are due to errors by medical staff
2) patients can only sue where a medical expert testifues as to the existence of negligence and is paid a nice sum to do so.
3) the medical profession denying negligence lengthens the case time considerably which substanially increases legal fees
4) a large part of awards are future care costs. Therefore the high salaries of the medical profession are a significant element of these awards. Therefore cutting doctors salaries would reduce the size of awards. Presumably you'd support this such is your concern!!!!?
 
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Ardillaun

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So we should pay consultants more so they can buy nicer houses?! That'll end well.
One of many factors making Ireland a less attractive place to work.

I did work for a top US attorney for a good few years ( my work was nothing related to the legal profession before u go off on one) i can assure you he was making multiples of what a top one here would.
Having complained about anglosphere comparisons for doctors, it is curious that you cite a US standard for lawyers.

Again you're trying to blame others for negligence costs. Once again:

1) they are due to errors by medical staff
2) patients can only sue where a medical expert testifues as to the existence of negligence and is paid a nice sum to do so.
3) the medical profession denying negligence lengthens the case time considerably which substanially increases legal fees
4) a large part of awards are future care costs. Therefore the high salaries of the medical profession are a significant element of these awards. Therefore cutting doctors salaries would reduce the size of awards. Presumably you'd support this such is your concern!!!!?
Why do I bother? Your trust in medical experts is touching given how much you revile doctors in general. Obviously, negligence costs are NOT due to some extraordinary deficiency in the standard of Irish physicians but to wider problems in the Irish legal system and Irish culture. Take a look sometime at how much it costs to insure a doctor in other countries like Canada. Ireland is out of step even with the common law jurisdictions on litigation costs, let alone Europe.
 
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ruman

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One of many factors making Ireland a less attractive place to work.



Having complained about anglosphere comparisons for doctors, it is curious that you cite a US standard for lawyers.



Why do I bother? Your trust in medical experts is touching given how much you revile doctors in general. Obviously, negligence costs are NOT due to some extraordinary deficiency in the standard of Irish physicians but to wider problems in the Irish legal system and Irish culture. Take a look sometime at how much it costs to insure a doctor in other countries like Canada. Ireland is out of step even with the common law jurisdictions on litigation costs, let alone Europe.
Yes why bother quoting my post when you refuse to address any point raised in it!

(You brought up lawyers i simply refuted your point. )

Another point your faith in the insurance industry is touching as the thought of them gouging irish customers doesnt appear to have occurred to you!

I dont have trust in medical experts just pointing out your refusal to acknowledge the substanial role the medical profession plays in the size of awards ( and insurance costs). A reality you continue to ignore.

For the 3rd time given care costs make up a substantial portion of awards would you favour reducing medical salaries to reduce the size of awards?!!

You wont do this of course because your entire hypothises for the refusal to admit failings is complete spoofery , a lame pathetic excuse for the repugnant failure of irish medics to admit errors.

I dont " revile " doctors , i revile those who expect high salaries while providing a terrible service. Lose the beal bocht complex its embrassing. We're only entitled to what people are prepared to pay for the service we provide. I'm sorry you choose a careers where the pay isnt high enough to buy a house in the area you choose in Ireland but hey thats life and you made your choices.
 
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ruman

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None of us are completely impartial. We all come here with our biases.
Yes we do. You refuse to accept the part the medical profession plays in compensation awards which is somewhat understandable given your profession. Less forgivably you appear ignorant as to what is included in those awards or how they are costed.

You claim to have an issue with high awards but when its pointed out that increasing medical salaries will increase award sizes further you stick your head in the sand. It does rather undermine your claims to be concerned about the cost to the taxpayer of these awards and reinforces the suspicion that your only concern here is not the health service but the medical profession.

Compensation here are down to a myriad of factors i'm finding it difficult to take you seriously when you claim above they are down to one factor ( legal and cultural factors). Difference between us is I accept that is a factor but you refuse to acknowledge the other factors despite me pointing them out repeatedly. As a doctor you should take ownership of your contribution to high insurance costs and compensation claims. Certainly its hypocritical for you to complain about the contribution of others when you refuse to do so yourself.

No engineer is deluded enough to think the financial rewards in Dublin would match those in Silicon valley. No one in Investment management would expect the same salary in Dublin as they could get in NY or London. Despite having an extremely poor health service our Consultants expect to amongst the highest paid in the world. Its delusional childish stuff and quite simply we cant afford it. If that means you cant come home well best of luck in Canada.
 
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