European populism

Karloff

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Messages
6,952
Could an 'Arab Spring' be heading to Europe?

The powers that be may have decided to try their hand at using populism now. Seemingly coordinated the US is a political carnival sideshow, Britain is playing it's Brexit game, Italy could be up next with the Dec 4 vote, France is roiling.

A whole slew of fake 'maverick'' individuals rising - pretending to represent the disaffected but when in power like Trump, embrace the corporate status quo but just even more so. I use the term Arab Spring because that was fake, yes disaffected supported it - but it was not started by disaffected and was designed to betray them. The term 'Arab Spring' should enter the English language on a permanent basis to mean a mass trojan horse movement powered by and using people's disillusionment but masterminded by others.

To place your faith in populist right wingers is not a good idea, there are always parasitic billionaires somewhere in the background with a puppet string in their hand. Populism needs to be tempered with honest intellectual guidance and patriotism or it can be just a tool for the accelerated corrupting and decay of Western liberal society.

I said it years ago that the rich would use multiculturalism as a means to divide society and give themselves a powerful platform - that's why they (the rich) engineered mass migration. From a left wing perspective i saw that years ago. Now for the benefit of the stupids the rich have returned to claim their baby that of contrived xenophobia which they laid the groundwork for while screaming about 'liberal elites' (it must be said that liberal elites played their part in this theatre).

I hope European politics can resist 'americanisations' of ANY form.
 
Last edited:


Congalltee

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
Messages
6,124
The EU has overreached. It should have remained an economic community with some common areas. Instead, it is seen as dictatorial, unaccountable, expensive, bureaucratic, and anti-national. Obviously there was to be a reaction, in
The wake of the 2008 crash, as there was after the 1929 one.
 

Truth.ie

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
27,354
Calling people who disagree with you "Right-wingers" is textbook populism.

Not everyone who voted Brexit or opposes the EU in Italy is "right wing".

Likewise saying you supported Trump in the U.S is probably the least popular thing you can say in public.
 

Erudite Caveman

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2016
Messages
7,329
The EU has overreached. It should have remained an economic community with some common areas. Instead, it is seen as dictatorial, unaccountable, expensive, bureaucratic, and anti-national. Obviously there was to be a reaction, in
The wake of the 2008 crash, as there was after the 1929 one.
If the 2008 crash was specific to the EU then that would make some sense. The EU did over-reach, by facilitating unreasonably low costs of borrowing for countries like Greece, which stemmed from letting unqualified countries into the EZ. But aside from that almost every other fck up that lead to the financial crash was made at the level of national governments.
 

ibis

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
12,293
Populism needs to be tempered with honest intellectual guidance and patriotism
Sigh. You can't "temper" populism.

Populism isn't just a mass movement, isn't just "popular policies", isn't "speaking up for the disaffected". It's a very particular thing.

Populism pretends to be serving the "will of the people", which means that instead of lots of individuals with individual views, there's one collective body with one will, which is channelled through the populist party/leader. The corollaries of this stand in complete opposition to democracy.

Since "the people" have one will, anyone opposed to that will is not just "in a minority", they're flat wrong, and not just flat wrong, they're clearly not part of "the people". In a democracy, they just hold a not-popular view - in populism, they're non-people.

Since the Party is channelling the will of the people, opposition to the Party is wrong. There can be no Loyal Opposition under populism, because there can be no other view.

Constitutional barriers to implementing the will of the people are equally obviously wrong. If something prevents the implementation of the will, or makes it more difficult in any way, it is wrong, and must be abolished. Rights, constitutional balance, term limits, all ridiculous and wrong-headed impediments to the will. You can allow for people to have some sentimental attachment to them on historical/tradition grounds, but that's it.

Equally clearly, once the people have spoken, there is no going back or changing course. The people are right, must be right, cannot be wrong. No need for further votes.

A good example is the designation of the High Court judges in the UK's Brexit case as "enemies of the people". This is populism loud and clear - "the people have spoken", and anyone who so much as suggests that the will of the people needs tempering is a traitor.

You can't temper populism any more than you can temper dictatorship, because populism is dictatorship. It may use democratic channels to rise to power, but it is inherently anti-democratic. And it is always a lie, because there is no "people", there are just people.
 

raspberry tea

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2015
Messages
1,670
I hope we get out of the EU and other countiries have the integrity,guts and honesty/bravery to do the same........Otherwise the ''EU'' will cease to exist,we cannot keep pouring boat load after boatload of muslims into europe and not expect diar consequences.....
 

Karloff

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Messages
6,952
Create a problem wait for people to be distracted/forgetful.

Burst forward with the solution to the problem you created, convincing people only you could do it.

It's a great way to effect mass political change within media -driven democratic societies. The US created Islamic terrorism and then presented itself as the cure to it - and that they uniquely had the right to reorganise all the furniture in the Middle East. The fear about Islam and migrants in Europe (an issue that people have genuine grievances about) is another example, create the fear by bringing them in which Merkel and others did - then stride forward with the 'solution' - in the form of these 'revolutionary' populists who promise everything but represent other interests and are more corrupt, abusive and tied to big money than the 'elites' they swept away.

The US/UK have used their Wahhabi connections with stunning results, revolutionary Islam could be used within Europe's future too. Look at how it has destroyed the Middle East and is now influencing Europe!

The EU has overreached. It should have remained an economic community with some common areas. Instead, it is seen as dictatorial, unaccountable, expensive, bureaucratic, and anti-national. Obviously there was to be a reaction, in
The wake of the 2008 crash, as there was after the 1929 one.
People are always dissatisfied but be careful what you wish for. Reactions to elite abuses tend now to be mastered by elites also. Would we really want the EU boring and slow burning as it was with all it's laws and regulations - to break up? To leave a few nationalist entities competing with each other instead of cooperating and with all kinds of mad politics abounding.
 

Congalltee

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
Messages
6,124
What is the reaction of our leaders in the EU? More integration, banking union, a euoropean army, monetary union.

If you are ever insomniac, watch European Parliament news. It's full of talking heads talking about a Europe which doesn't exist (and will never exist. the latest from them was not to test CETA before the CJEU by 2/3 majority)
 

Ruadh

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
2,491
So the global elite engineered multiculturalism so as to be able to give themselves a platform. That's a theory alright.

Why though would they require a platform when they were able to impose their agenda without constraints for decades. Multiculturalism isn't to give them a platform. It's simply a way of making the creation of a reserve pool of labour Labour something acceptable to society.

Marx already covered this. We don't need conspiracy when there are simple explanations available already that match the evidence.
 

LeopoldLanthanum

Active member
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
193
The EU has overreached. It should have remained an economic community with some common areas. Instead, it is seen as dictatorial, unaccountable, expensive, bureaucratic, and anti-national. Obviously there was to be a reaction, in
The wake of the 2008 crash, as there was after the 1929 one.
... even worse than an unhealthy overarch, IMO , they seem to do this in a rigid, emotionally compelling way , head-on against individualism and rationality.
 

Congalltee

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
Messages
6,124
So, imagine if a populist party emerged in Ireland where they were opposition and controlled government, where they wiped the slate clean after wiping out billions and causing the young idealists to emigrate. Where their councillors described travellers as "not our people" and a traveller house was a victim of arson after one of its public reps condemned them. Imagine if the party held referendum against the children of foreigners and 80% of people agreed to strip away rights from those unborn. Single party government is only a matter of time.
 

sic transit

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Messages
25,397
So, imagine if a populist party emerged in Ireland where they were opposition and controlled government, where they wiped the slate clean after wiping out billions and causing the young idealists to emigrate. Where their councillors described travellers as "not our people" and a traveller house was a victim of arson after one of its public reps condemned them. Imagine if the party held referendum against the children of foreigners and 80% of people agreed to strip away rights from those unborn. Single party government is only a matter of time.
We already have a handful, including one establishment one. The biggest challenge to all of this is the fact that we are not political, don't much care about politics and nor do we have a traditional right left voting tendency. We also love to "wait in the long grass". Even a political pasting like that doled out to FF and Labour did not invite a massive anti-establishment vote. Our reaction was in effect to vote for nobody!

We have been spared a lot of the perceived problems in other countries, through the need for the Troika, our own recent recovery and that we can argue we are far too small for the types of influx other countries have seen.
 

Dame_Enda

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Messages
53,614
Populism isnt necessarily a bad thing as long as it inspires people to reform corrupt political and economic systems. Of course Right and Left wing populists - while tending to both be protectionist on trade - tend to disagree on immigration (though some in the German "Die Linke" party are opposed to open borders).
 

Eire1976

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
13,764
What is the reaction of our leaders in the EU? More integration, banking union, a euoropean army, monetary union.

If you are ever insomniac, watch European Parliament news. It's full of talking heads talking about a Europe which doesn't exist (and will never exist. the latest from them was not to test CETA before the CJEU by 2/3 majority)
And War with Russia - while allowing the subbing out of all manufacturing jobs to the far east.

Is there even a plan?
 

RasherHash

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Messages
24,535
"Populism" seems to be what the elite call democracy when they don't get their own way.
 

Karloff

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Messages
6,952
So the global elite engineered multiculturalism so as to be able to give themselves a platform. That's a theory alright.

Why though would they require a platform when they were able to impose their agenda without constraints for decades. Multiculturalism isn't to give them a platform. It's simply a way of making the creation of a reserve pool of labour Labour something acceptable to society.

Marx already covered this. We don't need conspiracy when there are simple explanations available already that match the evidence.
Well you could say that maybe they engineered it 'so they could give themselves a platform and for other reasons also...'. I do not think these people care about 'the Homeland' as much as they pretend. It was one major reason why i as a left leaning individual rejected mass immigration, there is a reason why the US South is the most backward right wing part of the US with the poorest masses - namely the racial divide and how right wingers have used it and fear to elect destroyers of society and social justice.

Why 'require a platform?' Well for a start they hobble diissent by taking ownership of it, they control their own criticism and can steer it down certain particular avenues while avoiding others. For example Trump came to own criticism of Hillary - which is unacceptable - because he stands for most of the same things she does.

As for 'reverse pool of labour' that you find acceptable - as a left winger i presume - have you looked at unemployment figures lately? And seriously, Marx has been dead for a hundred years, he grew up in an age without democracy or mass media or any of a hundred important factors, adapt what he says if you want but it must be adapted, he is not a bible.
 
Last edited:

ibis

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
12,293
"Populism" seems to be what the elite call democracy when they don't get their own way.
The elite always get their way. It's only a question of mustering enough fools, after all.
 

wombat

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
32,994
"Populism" seems to be what the elite call democracy when they don't get their own way.
Change elite to insiders and you would be spot on. I may be picky, but elite denotes superiority as in elite sportsmen. People who spend their lives in a sheltered sector are not superior to very many. The weakness of democratic politicians is that they take too much advice. In previous times, advice came from civil servants who outlined consequences of the minister's policies but now they have west wing wanabees proposing policies, not on the basis of what they can achieve but on how popular they think they may be.
 

Karloff

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Messages
6,952
The worst thing about the immigration issue is it is a blocker, it blocks people from looking at other (normal everyday) issues. It appeals to strong emotions which affect voters' judgement. And that is bad for Europe. People should be looking at economic and environmental and normal issues. There is definitely sleight of hand taking place. Though immigration IS an important issue also.

Another blocker that i am seeing more and more of is wackjob extremist feminism, this appears to be a blocker used by liberals while immigration is a blocker issue used by the right. It was used with the Clinton campaign - but it appears to have failed - women voted for Trump. But extremist feminism has all but invaded every liberal space, squeezing out social justice or environmentalism. As though the ascension of a female millionaire insider to a particular job was a great victory for all women. As if.
 


New Threads

Most Replies

Top