EU's highest court hears case that could give married same sex couples the rights of marriage all across the EU

USER1234

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EU's highest court hears case that could give married same sex couples the rights of marriage all across the EU

Romania Gay Marriage Case Could Have Outsize Impact in Europe

BUCHAREST, Romania — The European Union’s highest court began examining a case on Tuesday over a Romanian man’s attempts to get legal residency for his American husband, a closely watched hearing that will have major implications for the legal recognition of same-sex relationships across Europe.

The case, legal experts say, could determine whether same-sex partners are afforded some of the same benefits and rights available to heterosexual spouses across the 28-member bloc, irrespective of the countries’ stance on same-sex marriage. Specifically, it would affect whether they would be allowed to live and work freely across the European Union, one of the region’s fundamental principles.

The case before the court involves Adrian Coman, a Romanian rights activist, and his American partner, Claibourn Robert Hamilton. The couple were married in Belgium in 2010, seven years after the country legalized same-sex marriage. Belgium is one of 13 countries in the European Union to allow same-sex marriage, while a further nine member states have civil unions or something similar, according to Mr. Wintemute.

European Union laws give the citizens of the bloc’s member states and their family members the right to move and freely reside across the region, subject to certain conditions. But as the couple looked to move to Romania, the authorities in Bucharest refused to recognize their relationship for the purposes of residency.
Full Story: The New York Times -
Romania Gay Marriage Case Could Have Outsize Impact in Europe


My Comments:

1) i hope they win!!

2) it would be great for gay people to be able to have the same rights of marriage all over Europe not just in those EU countries which supports those rights

3) before anybody bitches and moans about the courts overriding the will of the people or the EU being dictatorial dont forget:
i) they havnt ruled yet and won't for a few months!
ii)that the countries of Europe agreed to be bound by the ruling of the courts when they agreed to join the EU
iii) this won't force EU countries to bring in same sex marriage but just recognise those done legally in any EU country as long as one of the couple is an EU Citizen

4) as well as Romania, Bulgaria, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Slovakia are EU nations with no recognition for same-sex relationships.
 
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Catalpast

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Full Story: The New York Times -
Romania Gay Marriage Case Could Have Outsize Impact in Europe


My Comments:

1) i hope they win!!

2) it would be great for gay people to be able to have the same rights of marriage all over Europe not just in those EU countries which supports those rights

3) before anybody bitches and moans about the courts overriding the will of the people or the EU being dictatorial dont forget:
i) they havnt ruled yet and won't for a few months!
ii)that the countries of Europe agreed to be bound by the ruling of the courts when they agreed to join the EU
iii) this won't force those countries to bring in same sex marriage but just recognise those done legally in any EU country as long as one of the couple is an EU Citizen

4) as well as Romania, Bulgaria, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Slovakia are EU nations with no recognition for same-sex relationships.
Interesting...very interesting

So if we had voted NO (as I did)

- then a ruling in their favour

- would rendered our votes Null & Void

Or put it another way

- a vote against them means SSM

- is not in line with EU Law...

Figure that one out....
 

USER1234

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Interesting...very interesting

So if we had voted NO (as I did)

- then a ruling in their favour

- would rendered our votes Null & Void

Or put it another way

- a vote against them means SSM

- is not in line with EU Law...

Figure that one out....
Nope our vote would still be valid, same sex couples woudnt be able to get married here, however if the court rule in their favour and if a couple got married in another country and came to Ireland then yes under EU law the irish state would have to treat them as a married couple

Again this won't force countries to bring in gay marriage just recognise those marrages legally preformed in another EU country as long as one of the couple is an EU citizen!
 

Wascurito

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A wee warning to the OP: the moderators take a dim view of people quoting large chunks of text verbatim from external sources.
 

Wascurito

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Interesting...very interesting

So if we had voted NO (as I did)

- then a ruling in their favour

- would rendered our votes Null & Void

Or put it another way

- a vote against them means SSM

- is not in line with EU Law...

Figure that one out....
So
- many
- ifs
- and
- hypothetical
- statements
- and
- hyphens;
- especially
- hyphens.
 

stopdoingstuff

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I supported gay marriage in the context of a sovereign decision by an electorate. I do not support it in the context of a bunch of foreigners telling me what to do. They can go and fk themselves.
 

Dame_Enda

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In American terms, Eastern Europe is the "South" of the EU. The Orthodox countries are particularly homophobic though so is Poland. They didnt experience the liberalisation of the 1960s because they were under Communism. So in a way they are somewhat behind the West in social attitudes.
 

livingstone

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Seems like a no brainer in terms of EU law. The EU is founded on the idea of free movement and that includes free movement for someone's non-EU citizen spouse. It's pretty obvious why - free movement for most married people would be entirely pointless if their spouse can't move with them.

That's a separate question as to whether EU countries must carry out same sex marriages - I can't think of an EU law reason that would be the case. But affording FM rights to someone's spouse, regardless of gender, would seem a pretty solid reading of EU law.
 

Filibuster

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A guy I know from another part of continental Europe was relocated to Poland by his company (major IT company). He’s gay and married. They had no legal recognition for taxation, welfare, pensions and were also basically run out of the country.

People in the office would move away from him / wouldn’t sit anywhere near him. Lots of nasty comments and so on. Then his car was attacked outside his house - windows broken and so on. Graffiti on the house and they were threatened on the street and so on.

In the end he just said he couldn’t possibly put his partner through that for the sake of a job and he left the company and has been moved to Ireland and is getting on absolutely fine.

The company involved wasn’t all that accommodating about relocating him and they ended up losing a senior employee over it and he was snapped up in Ireland very quickly and by one of their direct competitors.

You can see though how it’s very contrary to the concept of freedom of movement if most EU countries recognize same sex marriage and a handful are very opposed to it. Effectively, you’re in a situation where some couples can’t move because they will cease to be recognized as a couple at all.

Personally, I would see it as more like the bad old days of the US where some states would have taken issue with mixed marriage or black couples. If you’re gay, you’re gay. It’s not any different from being ginger or having blond hair. It’s just a personal attribute.

It’s a bit of a mess though as you’ve got a small group of countries that are ridiculously homophobic while the majority are very LGBT friendly. It’s rapidly turning into a very divided EU on this and a lot of other issues as I don’t think quite a few of the former Eastern Bloc countries are even on the same chapter, never mind the same page.

Maybe the EU rushed eastern expansions far too optimistically in the last rounds of accession.
There had always been a sort of movement towards a set of European values that were usually pretty socially liberal and progressive. I’m not entirely convinced that the EU has that kind of clarity anymore. You’ve a bunch of members that are significantly more right wing and seem to be in line with Russia more than Western Europe and just care about market access.

It’s not just lgbt rights but you’ve a growing shift towards authoritarianism, a total disregard for environmental policies and so on.
 
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Gin Soaked

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I supported gay marriage in the context of a sovereign decision by an electorate. I do not support it in the context of a bunch of foreigners telling me what to do. They can go and fk themselves.
So that means that if you and your same sex spouse visit a less tolerant country , one of you falls ill, the other is excluded from next of kin decisions.

There are many other cruel ramifications of this.
 

Filibuster

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This is the problem with the EU though. It’s brought in several members that come from a completely different modern political history to the older members and maybe they don’t really buy into what we have considered to be EU values.
You can see that clearly with the showdown with Poland and Hungary over democratic requirements and I have my doubts that they will give a toss what any EU institution says to them either.

I think there’s an arrogant optimism in Western Europe that everyone will eventually come around to our way of thinking. That’s not necessarily going to happen and we could just end up with a completely divided EU with a progress mostly Western group and a socially conservative and more Russia like mostly eastern group.

Bear in mind too that these countries will be shaping EU policy more and more as time goes on. So the days of a generally progressive EU could also end. At the very least, it could become deadlocked like the US with liberal vs conservative stages.
 
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Notachipanoaktree

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Is anything these Neoliberals twats used as an excuse for WHY, panning out to have been true?

No, eh? Thought so. Just gimme the money.

Roll out the Halifax Gibbet. NOW before the point of no return is passed. Maybe it's long passed already? Who knows?
 

Dame_Enda

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A guy I know from another part of continental Europe was relocated to Poland by his company (major IT company). He’s gay and married. They had no legal recognition for taxation, welfare, pensions and were also basically run out of the country.

People in the office would move away from him / wouldn’t sit anywhere near him. Lots of nasty comments and so on. Then his car was attacked outside his house - windows broken and so on. Graffiti on the house and they were threatened on the street and so on.

In the end he just said he couldn’t possibly put his partner through that for the sake of a job and he left the company and has been moved to Ireland and is getting on absolutely fine.

The company involved wasn’t all that accommodating about relocating him and they ended up losing a senior employee over it and he was snapped up in Ireland very quickly and by one of their direct competitors.

You can see though how it’s very contrary to the concept of freedom of movement if most EU countries recognize same sex marriage and a handful are very opposed to it. Effectively, you’re in a situation where some couples can’t move because they will cease to be recognized as a couple at all.

Personally, I would see it as more like the bad old days of the US where some states would have taken issue with mixed marriage or black couples. If you’re gay, you’re gay. It’s not any different from being ginger or having blond hair. It’s just a personal attribute.

It’s a bit of a mess though as you’ve got a small group of countries that are ridiculously homophobic while the majority are very LGBT friendly. It’s rapidly turning into a very divided EU on this and a lot of other issues as I don’t think quite a few of the former Eastern Bloc countries are even on the same chapter, never mind the same page.

Maybe the EU rushed eastern expansions far too optimistically in the last rounds of accession.
There had always been a sort of movement towards a set of European values that were usually pretty socially liberal and progressive. I’m not entirely convinced that the EU has that kind of clarity anymore. You’ve a bunch of members that are significantly more right wing and seem to be in line with Russia more than Western Europe and just care about market access.

It’s not just lgbt rights but you’ve a growing shift towards authoritarianism, a total disregard for environmental policies and so on.
Poland is like Ireland in 1992 except homosexuality is not illegal. But in polls in 1993-4 in Ireland only around 30% in polls were in favour of decriminalisation. In Poland 71% regularly say in polls that they disapprove of homosexuality.
 

Roll_On

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In American terms, Eastern Europe is the "South" of the EU. The Orthodox countries are particularly homophobic though so is Poland. They didnt experience the liberalisation of the 1960s because they were under Communism. So in a way they are somewhat behind the West in social attitudes.
In fairness Ireland's 1960s came about in the 1990s because we were under Catholicism.
 

Dame_Enda

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In fairness Ireland's 1960s came about in the 1990s because we were under Catholicism.
There was a slight liberalisation of the rules on condoms for married couples, and slight relaxation of censorship.
 

Roll_On

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Something does have to be done, you can't have freedom of movement and then have that freedom practically removed for same-sex couples that cross the iron curtain(or go to Italy). There will probably have to be a situation where gay couples married in the west have their marriages recognized in the East, even if such marriages can't be performed there. At least until the East modernizes.

The present legal situation is akin to that of the US in the mid-20th Century with interracial couples being allowed to marry in some states and being hunted in others.
 

Dame_Enda

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Poland wants to have it both ways. They want the West to protect them from Russia but don't want to protect the rights of all westerners in their country
 

Filibuster

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The assumption was that Ireland was going to "catch up" and that has proven to be the case.

With certain eastern members things seem to be going the opposite direction, particularly as Russia seems to be morphing into a major centre of very far right thinking on social issues.
 


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