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External Debt drops to 1.64 Trillion Euro


Cassandra Syndrome

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We have by far the highest external debt per capita in the world. It has dropped from 1.7 Trillion Euro back in September 2008. Government foreign debt has soared as we know to 73 Billion Euro at Sept 09. However financial institutions debt has shrunk from over 800 Billion back in June 08 to 691 Billion reflecting the general evaporation of credit in this country.

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/economy/current/externaldebt.pdf
 

HarshBuzz

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Cassandra, this is an entirely useless statistic and has been proven so many times

what happens when you strip out IFSC numbers from that?
 

Cassandra Syndrome

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Cassandra, this is an entirely useless statistic and has been proven so many times

what happens when you strip out IFSC numbers from that?
The majority of Monetary Financial institutes on Page 2 as I detailed in the opening post. 400 Billion of this debt is in turn loaned to the Irish private sector.

As external debt is defined;

The IMF External Debt Manual defines external debt to be a point in time statistical statement of
the value and composition of the stock of an economy’s gross foreign financial liabilities to the rest
of the world.
The liabilities referred to cover those arising from Irish residents issuing debt
securities such as bonds, notes and money market instruments to non-residents, as well as any loans
received from and outstanding to non-residents, and any trade payables due to non-residents. In
essence, external debt refers to financial obligations to non-residents other than those arising from
transactions in equity or financial derivative contracts.
Its 1.2 Million Euro per household. I am aware of the factor of the IFSC and foreign direct investment is involved in this figure, but the fact that this makes it mind boggling on top of our high personal and government debt figures is worthy of highlighting.
 

feargach

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The majority of Monetary Financial institutes on Page 2 as I detailed in the opening post. 400 Billion of this debt is in turn loaned to the Irish private sector.

As external debt is defined;

Its 1.2 Million Euro per household. I am aware of the factor of the IFSC and foreign direct investment is involved in this figure, but the fact that this makes it mind boggling on top of our high personal and government debt figures is worthy of highlighting.
This external debt is mostly owned by corporations. When a corporation goes bust with excessive debt, it is wound up and the debt basically vanishes. The creditor has lost his "asset". No household is liable for the debt of the wound-up corporation.

So saying "X amount per household" makes as much sense as "X amount per rabbit".
 

HarshBuzz

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This external debt is mostly owned by corporations. When a corporation goes bust with excessive debt, it is wound up and the debt basically vanishes. The creditor has lost his "asset". No household is liable for the debt of the wound-up corporation.
true....unless that corporation is called Anglo Irish, Irish Nationwide, Bank of Ireland, Allied Irish Bank etc etc
 

HarshBuzz

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The majority of Monetary Financial institutes on Page 2 as I detailed in the opening post. 400 Billion of this debt is in turn loaned to the Irish private sector.

Its 1.2 Million Euro per household. I am aware of the factor of the IFSC and foreign direct investment is involved in this figure, but the fact that this makes it mind boggling on top of our high personal and government debt figures is worthy of highlighting.
oh yeah, I'm not trying to understate our crushing debt burden - both private and corporate (and, increasingly, sovereign) - just trying to point out that most of that 1.64trn has nothing to with Irish citizens or corporations

they really should release a 'net of IFSC operations' figure at the same time
 

Cassandra Syndrome

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This external debt is mostly owned by corporations. When a corporation goes bust with excessive debt, it is wound up and the debt basically vanishes. The creditor has lost his "asset". No household is liable for the debt of the wound-up corporation.

So saying "X amount per household" makes as much sense as "X amount per rabbit".

I never said it was directly per household. I was using that as indicative purposes. I am very well aware of what external debt is anf the fact that a tiny nation like Ireland comes in the top ten in the world for total external debt period.

For the 3rd time I dealt directly with Page 2's Monetary Financial Institutes which makes up 690 Million Euro of the external debt.
 

bormotello

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This external debt is mostly owned by corporations. When a corporation goes bust with excessive debt, it is wound up and the debt basically vanishes. The creditor has lost his "asset". No household is liable for the debt of the wound-up corporation.
Iceland thought the same
 

feargach

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Iceland thought the same
Er, are you aware that "is liable for the debt of" is a phrase with a very precise meaning?

If all the US-based software companies in Ireland were to collapse on the same day due to excessive debt, this would have inevitable painful consequences for most households in Ireland.

But it still does not follow that those household are "liable for the debts of" those companies.

Those $1.2 trillion debts are owed by companies who employ hardly anyone in Ireland, and who transact virtually all their business with foreigners. They are in Ireland because of the low tax, and for absolutely no other reason.

If those IFSC corporations blow up, the people who will suffer the most as a result live in New York, Tokyo and Rome. They only have any business with the IFSC in the same way as they have business with the Cayman Islands, Jersey, Macau, Liechtenstein and Andorra.

I was under the impression that you read a lot of economics. How are you unaware of this?
 

bormotello

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I thought the same until yesterday morning, when I heard Dutch finance minister on Euronews, where he mentioned that Iceland is responsible for debt of all financial institutions, which were under regulation of Iceland authorities.

Anger over Iceland compensation decision - Financial Crisis : news, world | euronews)

Wouter Bos, the Dutch Finance Minister, said:

“It’s very disappointing and unacceptable for us. We’ve been extremely mild in our negotiations, we have offered the Icelandic government a low interest rate and very, very long payback times. Because we know that the Icelandic economy is in a fragile state, so we can’t ask too much of them. But what they cannot expect from us is that we let Dutch tax payers pay the bill for failure of Icelandic bankers and Icelandic supervisors.”
Problem is that most of this debt is coming from financial institutions - Irish or ISFC, which means that those institutions are under regulations of Irish financial regulator :(
I would be so certain that country could easily escape from this debt.
 

Supermanpolitician

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We have by far the highest external debt per capita in the world. It has dropped from 1.7 Trillion Euro back in September 2008. Government foreign debt has soared as we know to 73 Billion Euro at Sept 09. However financial institutions debt has shrunk from over 800 Billion back in June 08 to 691 Billion reflecting the general evaporation of credit in this country.

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/economy/current/externaldebt.pdf
Let me guess...you interpret this as meaning we will all be using ham radios and eating our own babies?
 

MPB

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I thought the same until yesterday morning, when I heard Dutch finance minister on Euronews, where he mentioned that Iceland is responsible for debt of all financial institutions, which were under regulation of Iceland authorities.

Anger over Iceland compensation decision - Financial Crisis : news, world | euronews)



Problem is that most of this debt is coming from financial institutions - Irish or ISFC, which means that those institutions are under regulations of Irish financial regulator :(
I would be so certain that country could easily escape from this debt.
Iceland asked the Dutch and the British to test this in court and agreed to abide by court findings, yet for some reason the Dutch and the British declined their generous offer.

Makes you wonder.

Just because Dutch Finance Minister says it is so does not necessarily mean it is.
 

Scorpio

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Perhaps we could also start a thread on gross assets, making us look like one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

Without the net figure, these figures are meaningless, despite bormotello's fretting.
 

Cassandra Syndrome

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Perhaps we could also start a thread on gross assets, making us look like one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

Without the net figure, these figures are meaningless, despite bormotello's fretting.
Started a thread 2 weeks ago about our Total Financial Assets V Total Liabilities. We are still in the red. It has a good breakdown of liabilities from government, Financial sector and household.

http://www.politics.ie/economy/120835-ireland-insolvent-tune-107-billion-euro.html
 

Cassandra Syndrome

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Perhaps we could also start a thread on gross assets, making us look like one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

Without the net figure, these figures are meaningless, despite bormotello's fretting.

I would estimate that all other assets, land, natural resources, buildings, equipment etc. come to about 1 Trillion Euro.
 

Taxi Driver

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Ireland's Gross External Debt remains at €1.6 trillion; €1,604.4 billion at end-December 2013.

This is the sum of all the liabilities in debt instruments (loans, bonds etc.) owe by Irish residents to residents of other countries.

The CSO provide a Net External Debt which is the balance of the debt liabilities OWED by Irish residents with debt assets OWNED by Irish residents.

"The Net External Debt position was -€696.5bn at end-December 2013 (-425% of GDP), i.e. assets exceeded liabilities."

If the Gross External Debt figure matters (it doesn't), then then the Net External Debt figure must equally matter. We are up nearly €700 billion!
 

Dublin 4

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The prob with the CSO spin machine TD- is that we've borrowed so fukkin much since the CNBC quote from 2011 :oops:
 
E

Elbereth

Up to No 1 according to CNBC - some "External Debt per Capita"! :shock2:
At least we're #1 at something. That'll keep all those who consistently view this country through others' eyes going for a while. ;)
 
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