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Families of soldiers killed in Iraq criticising Blair

Aristodemus

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I cannot understand how much airtime is afforded these people and why it's necessary to hear from them at all. Of course their losses are terrible but they are also personal. In the grand scheme of things less than 200 deaths in a war is not that horrendous an attrition rate.
The reality is that to a man every one of those soldiers was a volunteer. There was no conscription and every one of them knew the risks when signing up. Contrast this with the commemoration of, for example the Battle of the Somme. Descendants of men, most of whom were conscripted and sent to their deaths for no apparent reason by incompetent, callous commanders, telling us how proud they are of their relatives.
 


Prester Jim

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I cannot understand how much airtime is afforded these people and why it's necessary to hear from them at all. Of course their losses are terrible but they are also personal. In the grand scheme of things less than 200 deaths in a war is not that horrendous an attrition rate.
The reality is that to a man every one of those soldiers was a volunteer. There was no conscription and every one of them knew the risks when signing up. Contrast this with the commemoration of, for example the Battle of the Somme. Descendants of men, most of whom were conscripted and sent to their deaths for no apparent reason by incompetent, callous commanders, telling us how proud they are of their relatives.
I would definitely be giving more air-time to the families of Iraqi victims, they didn't ask for the vast death toll or the destruction of the their country, many of them are living in something next to hell now thanks to Bush and Blair.
 

former wesleyan

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I would definitely be giving more air-time to the families of Iraqi victims, they didn't ask for the vast death toll or the destruction of the their country, many of them are living in something next to hell now thanks to Bush and Blair.
You'd most likely get a wide range of opinions. For example Nigel Biggar, Regius Professor of Moral Theology at the University of Oxford in his Times article said:-

Five years ago I asked a group of young Iraqi professionals what they thought about the invasion. Their spokesman replied: “It’s good that it happened. It could have been done better. And it isn’t over.”


Others would disagree I'm sure.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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The war is viewed as illegal, so the families see each death as being pointless and avoidable.

What's difficult to understand about that?

Soldiers don't sign up to die or to fight illegal wars, they sign up to defend their country.
 

daveL

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It's funny seeing almost all British papers demonstrating their 'anti-war' credentials today...

But at the centre of each has been a 16 page pullout spectacular on the Battle of the Somme at some point in the last few weeks.

And it's almost time to get those Poppies out again. Poppy season is almost nigh.

And let's never forget the Battle of Britain, D-Day or the Falklands...

You can't be jingoistic and anti-war at the same time like.

As to your point - these families are the reality of war. They should be heard first and last.
 
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Prester Jim

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You'd most likely get a wide range of opinions. For example Nigel Biggar, Regius Professor of Moral Theology at the University of Oxford in his Times article said:-

Five years ago I asked a group of young Iraqi professionals what they thought about the invasion. Their spokesman replied: “It’s good that it happened. It could have been done better. And it isn’t over.”


Others would disagree I'm sure.
Oh there are doubtless some people who have benefited enormously from the war, it would be a unique event in human history if there was uniform pain and loss from it.
I don't doubt that the much greater majority are less pleased then the young professionals quoted.
 

Prester Jim

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The war is viewed as illegal, so the families see each death as being pointless and avoidable.

What's difficult to understand about that?

Soldiers don't sign up to die or to fight illegal wars, they sign up to defend their country.
That isn't strictly true, many do join up for those reasons true, some join up because of the benefits in some states like education and training, others join up because they need a job and have no other options, others because they want to inflict pain and kill people legally.
I imagine the nation's military history makes up a strong part of the decision, if you are joining the Irish or Swedish army you expect to be doing peacekeeping and we do have people from other countries joining specifically because of that, you join the military of a nation with a more militaristic, imperial army knowing the risks as well.
 

eoghanacht

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The war is viewed as illegal, so the families see each death as being pointless and avoidable.

What's difficult to understand about that?

Soldiers don't sign up to die or to fight illegal wars, they sign up to defend their country.

You would think it would be easy to grasp, wouldn't you?
 

sgtharper

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I cannot understand how much airtime is afforded these people and why it's necessary to hear from them at all. Of course their losses are terrible but they are also personal. In the grand scheme of things less than 200 deaths in a war is not that horrendous an attrition rate.
The reality is that to a man every one of those soldiers was a volunteer. There was no conscription and every one of them knew the risks when signing up. Contrast this with the commemoration of, for example the Battle of the Somme. Descendants of men, most of whom were conscripted and sent to their deaths for no apparent reason by incompetent, callous commanders, telling us how proud they are of their relatives.
Actually most of the men who fought in British or Empire uniform on the Somme weren't conscripts, conscription had only been introduced a few months before?:
In March 1916 the Military Service Act was passed. This imposed conscription on all single men aged between 18 and 41, but exempted the medically unfit, clergymen, teachers and certain classes of industrial worker. [FONT=verdana, arial, sans-serif]A second Act passed in May 1916 extended conscription to married men. [/FONT]
The vast majority of the British soldiers on the Somme would have enlisted voluntarily in 1915 and early 1916 as a response to Lord Kitcheners call for a New Army, these were the "Pals battalions" one hears so much about lately.
 

eoghanacht

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Oh there are doubtless some people who have benefited enormously from the war, it would be a unique event in human history if there was uniform pain and loss from it.
I don't doubt that the much greater majority are less pleased then the young professionals quoted.
An now, he had another anecdote yesterday where a Ch4 News reporter vox popped a few locals and guess what, they agrred with the professionals.

Wes is running his own Chillcot.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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That isn't strictly true, many do join up for those reasons true, some join up because of the benefits in some states like education and training, others join up because they need a job and have no other options, others because they want to inflict pain and kill people legally.
I imagine the nation's military history makes up a strong part of the decision, if you are joining the Irish or Swedish army you expect to be doing peacekeeping and we do have people from other countries joining specifically because of that, you join the military of a nation with a more militaristic, imperial army knowing the risks as well.

Financial and job reasons are a given...one need just look at who signs up...but have you evidence that people sign up to legally kill people?
 

Prester Jim

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An now, he had another anecdote yesterday where a Ch4 News reporter vox popped a few locals and guess what, they agrred with the professionals.

Wes is running his own Chillcot.
You have to expect a counter PR strategy from the usual suspects alright.
 

Prester Jim

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Financial and job reasons are a given...one need just look at who signs up...but have you evidence that people sign up to legally kill people?
Yes, I have read it a couple of times, will look it up.
 

eoghanacht

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You have to expect a counter PR strategy from the usual suspects alright.
Its just knee jerk from Wes at this stage. He's here fighting the good fight on behalf of the UK and Israel, the good guys.
 

Spanner Island

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Is there really a need for this thread?

Could it not have been discussed in the Chilcot thread?

I hope this isn't a precedent and that there won't be copious threads on this subject.
 

Prester Jim

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Finding it difficult to find a reputable source that isn't behind a paywall:

http://www.tactical************************.com/natural-killers-turning-tide-battle/

The next link is on a wesbite that is obviously a little scary but it refers to a real book by a US army Major.
Sociopath World: Psychopathy in the Army
Andy McNab is a diagnosed psychopath
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2004/mar/12/biography.stephenmoss
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2621102/Why-psychopath-secret-success-New-book-SAS-hero-Andy-McNab-reveals-having-character-traits-vital-winning-lifes-battles.html
and there are studies that I have read saying that much of the killing by soldiers is actually done by a smaller group of psychopaths or people with psycopathic tendencies, there was a famous study done by a high ranking US officer post war to look into who did the killing and who didn't and he found that there were some who were "shepherds" with psychopthatic tendencies but with a lawful bias perhaps who made good soldiers and there were others who were "wolves" who also had psychopathic tendencies but were less protective of others, both made good killers but the former group made better soldiers.
He also found that the great majority of soldiers weren't shooting to kill at all other then these groups.
A debate on the topic that says many of the truly creepy psychopaths don't stay in long, their teams don't like them.
http://www.vice.com/read/the-unique-challenge-of-being-a-psychopath-in-the-military-721
 

former wesleyan

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Its just knee jerk from Wes at this stage. He's here fighting the good fight on behalf of the UK and Israel, the good guys.
If the Prof of Moral Theology at Oxford hadn't said what he did, I couldn't have quoted him, could I ? Sorry for not having a black and white view of things.
 

Watcher2

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Is there really a need for this thread?

Could it not have been discussed in the Chilcot thread?

I hope this isn't a precedent and that there won't be copious threads on this subject.
We need something to dilute all those British exit threads
 

Watcher2

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Finding it difficult to find a reputable source that isn't behind a paywall:

http://www.tactical************************.com/natural-killers-turning-tide-battle/

The next link is on a wesbite that is obviously a little scary but it refers to a real book by a US army Major.
Sociopath World: Psychopathy in the Army
Andy McNab is a diagnosed psychopath
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2004/mar/12/biography.stephenmoss
Andy McNab reveals why having psychopath traits is vital to winning life's battles | Daily Mail Online
and there are studies that I have read saying that much of the killing by soldiers is actually done by a smaller group of psychopaths or people with psycopathic tendencies, there was a famous study done by a high ranking US officer post war to look into who did the killing and who didn't and he found that there were some who were "shepherds" with psychopthatic tendencies but with a lawful bias perhaps who made good soldiers and there were others who were "wolves" who also had psychopathic tendencies but were less protective of others, both made good killers but the former group made better soldiers.
He also found that the great majority of soldiers weren't shooting to kill at all other then these groups.
A debate on the topic that says many of the truly creepy psychopaths don't stay in long, their teams don't like them.
Do Sociopaths Make Better Soldiers? | VICE | United States
The finer detail is interesting but did you really need to go looking for support that people join armies in order to kill others?
 

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