FF, FG and Labour all want to save the Bondholders.

LeDroit

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What's the point of voting? They all want to pay off the banks investors instead of letting them burn. Our entire political class are cowards. What's the point in voting?
 


M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

Vote for an alternative then. All those 3 parties you outline straddle the right of the political spectrum (or centre when it suits them) and want to socialise the debt.
 

LeDroit

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Vote for an alternative then. All those 3 parties you outline straddle the right of the political spectrum (or centre when it suits them) and want to socialise the debt.
They are NOT the Right! The Right would let the investors fall. Those parties are all Statist, big govt lefties.
 

Cael

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They are NOT the Right! The Right would let the investors fall. Those parties are all Statist, big govt lefties.
By that definition, a Right party never existed.
 
M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

They are NOT the Right! The Right would let the investors fall. Those parties are all Statist, big govt lefties.
That's a crock!

There are those on the left who are libertarian. There are those on the right who are authoritarian.

The Political Compass - Outlines where in/on the scale Irish parties sit.

The 'Right' (FF&FG) and Centre (Lab), as you alluded to in your OP, are for socialising the debt and bailing out bondholders.
 

LeDroit

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That's a crock!

There are those on the left who are libertarian. There are those on the right who are authoritarian.

The Political Compass - Outlines where in/on the scale Irish parties sit.

The 'Right' (FF&FG) and Centre (Lab), as you alluded to in your OP, are for socialising the debt and bailing out bondholders.
You don't know what you're talking about. No Right thinking person would take on another persons debt. We are being failed by leftie dogma and the Americans are loving our stupidity.
 
M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

You don't know what you're talking about. No Right thinking person would take on another persons debt. We are being failed by leftie dogma and the Americans are loving our stupidity.
puhlease! :roll:

Based on the policies of the 2007 election manifestos;


http://www.politicalcompass.org/ireland

It is not leftie dogma (apart from maybe in your own head) but neoliberalism, an ideology of the right!
 

BlackLion

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Hi LeDroit
Long time reader, first time poster.
can someone tell me a what if scenario?

(1)what if we hang the bondholders, will be sort out ireland in the short term but in no other country would deal with us in the furture?

(2)What if we don't hang the bondholders and go down this road that FF *Cough* i mean france and germany have put us on. where do we end up.
 
M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

(1)what if we hang the bondholders, will be sort out ireland in the short term but in no other country would deal with us in the future?
Not true. Sure we'll be blacklisted by some but there would be others willing to lend to Ireland. Bondholders can afford to take the hit. They gambled, they lost.

(2)What if we don't hang the bondholders and go down this road that FF *Cough* i mean france and germany have put us on. where do we end up.
Slavery. The Irish people are lumped with a 200+ billion euro bill that would inevitably rise as we would eventually return to the markets to borrow more money to pay of the interest on these huge debts.


Default will be tough but IMO it's the lesser of the two evils. A debt for equity swap is also another option.
 

Padraigin

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They are NOT the Right! The Right would let the investors fall. Those parties are all Statist, big govt lefties.
Exactly. Those who believe in the free enterprise system storngly feel that the free enterprise system works best when badly run companies are allowed to fail.

No one wins when badly managed companies are kept going on life support provided by tax monies. This simply drains the economy, maintains something that is inefficient and/or non-productive, and prevents market forces from weeding out the bad companies while blocking the growth of more productive companies.

Keeping these failed banks "alive" while they have drained the lifeblood out of the Irish economy and the Irish people is the antithesis of free enterprise. This is the kind of thing that happens under state-controlled economies.

Never confuse wealth and corruption with the right. In most cases, the incestuous relationships between government and crony capitalists arise under quasi-socialist parties who never understand how free enterprise is supposed to work.
 

Odyessus

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Exactly. Those who believe in the free enterprise system storngly feel that the free enterprise system works best when badly run companies are allowed to fail.

No one wins when badly managed companies are kept going on life support provided by tax monies. This simply drains the economy, maintains something that is inefficient and/or non-productive, and prevents market forces from weeding out the bad companies while blocking the growth of more productive companies.

Keeping these failed banks "alive" while they have drained the lifeblood out of the Irish economy and the Irish people is the antithesis of free enterprise. This is the kind of thing that happens under state-controlled economies.

Never confuse wealth and corruption with the right. In most cases, the incestuous relationships between government and crony capitalists arise under quasi-socialist parties who never understand how free enterprise is supposed to work.

I sympathise with your view, and it sounds very convincing, but remember Lehmans.

Exactly the same arguments were used against bailing them out. Who now thinks it was a good idea to let them go to the wall?

If Ireland defaults it will very likely set off a domino effect that will make the Lehmans inspired crash look like a picnic.

Okay, maybe it won't; but can we take that chance?


Our options are: Take some pain, perhaps unnecessarily, or risk a world economic collapse that would see us literally starving in a world at war.

If we make the latter decision, it will be too late to go back if we get it wrong.

To quote Dirty Harry, "Do we feel lucky?"
 

Padraigin

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I sympathise with your view, and it sounds very convincing, but remember Lehmans.

Exactly the same arguments were used against bailing them out. Who now thinks it was a good idea to let them go to the wall?

If Ireland defaults it will very likely set off a domino effect that will make the Lehmans inspired crash look like a picnic.

Okay, maybe it won't; but can we take that chance?


Our options are: Take some pain, perhaps unnecessarily, or risk a world economic collapse that would see us literally starving in a world at war.

If we make the latter decision, it will be too late to go back if we get it wrong.

To quote Dirty Harry, "Do we feel lucky?"

Lehman's needed to fail, and it was good that it did. It was badly managed - a company that had become little more than an inflated Ponzi scheme. When market forces finally caught up with it, it collapsed like a soap bubble, which was all the substance it had by then.

Companies just as bad were rescued by the US government, though, which a huge and costly mistake. Saving AIG, Chase, and the others was a huge waste of American tax monies. The American economy would be far stronger by now if these corrupt and mismanaged companies had all crashed and burned like they were supposed to do when they could no longer sustain themselves. Better managed and more efficient companies would have arisen from their ashes (and assets) by now, and more than a few executives would be rightfully behind bars by now. And the American economy would be a lot better shape without being burdened by the cost of these crazy bailouts. There is no such thing as a company too big to fail, and having bloated companies spin off into component parts again as they come crashing down is healthy for the economy.

Using tax money to "save" companies that are failing due to bad management is a bad idea- period. It was a bad idea when the US did it. It is a bad idea when Ireland did it. In all cases, these bailouts hurt the underlying economy long term. This is true even when a country with a big economy does it.

These bailouts hurt the US economy.

The proposed bailout will destroy the Irish economy.
 

RahenyFG

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What's the point of voting? They all want to pay off the banks investors instead of letting them burn. Our entire political class are cowards. What's the point in voting?
I think you're mistaken. FF want to save the bondholders. FG and LAB both want the bondholders to take some share of the losses and make them pay their part. Leo Varadkar stated this on Monday on Vincent Browne.
 

Tea Party Patriot

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I think you're mistaken. FF want to save the bondholders. FG and LAB both want the bondholders to take some share of the losses and make them pay their part. Leo Varadkar stated this on Monday on Vincent Browne.
They both (FG and Lab) voted along with FF for the abominable bank guarentee that has led us down this path. I havn't heard FG or Lab come out and reject the IMF bailout which is going to cripple our economy for a generation.

Neither have either of them suggested that these banks with cesspits for balance sheet should be liquidated immediatly, until we let AIB, BOI, Anglo and ILIP go we not getting out of this mess. Private capital takes private risks and should also take private loses.
 

Red_93

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They both (FG and Lab) voted along with FF for the abominable bank guarentee that has led us down this path. I havn't heard FG or Lab come out and reject the IMF bailout which is going to cripple our economy for a generation.
Labour did not vote for the bank guarantee. they opposed it right the way through. FG, FF and the GP all supported it, and no-one know the SF stance because they kept changing it.
 

Watch The Break

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At the start of this week I was still undecided on FG and Labour, at this stage I can't see my self voting for either. All very well for them to rant and rave when the deal is done, but now is the time to actually do something. If they can't show some leadership now I don't see them doing it in government either.
 

Clanrickard

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They both (FG and Lab) voted along with FF for the abominable bank guarentee that has led us down this path. I havn't heard FG or Lab come out and reject the IMF bailout which is going to cripple our economy for a generation.

Neither have either of them suggested that these banks with cesspits for balance sheet should be liquidated immediatly, until we let AIB, BOI, Anglo and ILIP go we not getting out of this mess. Private capital takes private risks and should also take private loses.
Exactly my friend. The bondholders take all the loses. They invested and they failed and when a business fails it is liquidated. That's how capitalism works.
 


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