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FF's conversion to revisionism


erigena

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The ennobling of Sir P. Bartholomew Ahern approacheth. While the teaching of revisionism in Irish unis strikes some as problematic – how can you presume the moral force to levy taxes from people in order to pay lecturers to question your historical right to levy them? - here, in the US, Irish government policy reached fantastical heights of absurdity.

In 2005, the Irish consul-general in the western US decided to ignore the existence of a program in Irish studies in San Francisco and celtic studies at UC Berkeley, as well as the pleas of the Irish community here, and gave money to British studies to put on lectures in Irish studies. The sole historical lecturer was an arch-revisionist; check out http://ies.berkeley.edu/isiss/index.html After the “Workshop with Professor Jane Ohlmeyer” Revisionism: Debates on Irish History I guess we can expect “Pro-choice; debates in reproductive rights” and “No zyclon; debates on the holocaust myth.”

We got these lectures stopped only after sending a delegation to Aengus O Snodaigh in the Dail; to his credit, Aengus asked a written question. In the meantime, the Irish state has not attended any of the main regular non-political cultural events here, including a whole Irish day put on by International House at UC Berkeley.

Does anyone have similar tales from the assimilation of the Irish to the British state?

<Mod>Fixed Link</Mod>
 

RBinge

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Jan 19, 2005
Messages
255
erigena said:
We got these lectures stopped
The link is broken. Any other source?
 

cropbeye

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Joined
Aug 3, 2006
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944
Ive noticed

Ive noticed this pattern too. Was one of the reasons I resignes from

Fianna Fail.

A lot of good articles in Irish Political Review

Can be got at atholbooks.org
 

beardyboy

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207
A sad and sorry tale - are you sure that this is true?
 

White Horse

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Can the original poster please explain what he is trying to say in coherent and grammatically accurate English?
 

erigena

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beardyboy said:
A sad and sorry tale - are you sure that this is true?

Go deimhin. (Sorry, I'm still reeling from the brilliance of that articulate and detailed attack below on my anglo-saxon). I just checked the website and currently http://www.wiisonline.org/resources.php?type=lectures

has one of the Ohlmeyer lectures; the one where she lectures on Irish history without mentioning people like Breandan o Buachalla. Her revisionism one was worse, unfilmed unfortunately, and I notice she has been defending govt. policy on science versus arts funding ex cathedra at TCD.

Interesting they took down the other link..but perhaps happenstance.
 

Dunny

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erigena said:
The ennobling of Sir P. Bartholomew Ahern approacheth. While the teaching of revisionism in Irish unis strikes some as problematic – how can you presume the moral force to levy taxes from people in order to pay lecturers to question your historical right to levy them? - here, in the US, Irish government policy reached fantastical heights of absurdity.

In 2005, the Irish consul-general in the western US decided to ignore the existence of a program in Irish studies in San Francisco and celtic studies at UC Berkeley, as well as the pleas of the Irish community here, and gave money to British studies to put on lectures in Irish studies. The sole historical lecturer was an arch-revisionist; check out http://ies.berkeley.edu/isiss/index.html. After the “Workshop with Professor Jane Ohlmeyer” Revisionism: Debates on Irish History I guess we can expect “Pro-choice; debates in reproductive rights” and “No zyclon; debates on the holocaust myth.”

We got these lectures stopped only after sending a delegation to Aengus O Snodaigh in the Dail; to his credit, Aengus asked a written question. In the meantime, the Irish state has not attended any of the main regular non-political cultural events here, including a whole Irish day put on by International House at UC Berkeley.

Does anyone have similar tales from the assimilation of the Irish to the British state?
Ok why are you attacking FF on this one? Now as the link is broke, Im getting a bit confused.

The Irish Consul in California decided to give money to some one you disagree with? Am I right in thinking this is what is annoying you?
 

cain1798

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Messages
418
Dunny said:
Ok why are you attacking FF on this one? Now as the link is broke, Im getting a bit confused.

The Irish Consul in California decided to give money to some one you disagree with? Am I right in thinking this is what is annoying you?
Not completely sure what he's getting at either. I think it's not that it's a lecturer he disagrees with specifically, it's that the content and politics of that lecturer are revisionist, anti-Irish or anti-Irish nationalism.

That, and the in fairness rather curious decision not to fund existing Irish Studies courses in California universities and instead to part fund a British Studies course.

Could do with a bit more information on it in fairness but when I lived in California the Irish-American community over there was quite touchy on this sort of thing.
 

Dunny

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cain1798 said:
Dunny said:
Ok why are you attacking FF on this one? Now as the link is broke, Im getting a bit confused.

The Irish Consul in California decided to give money to some one you disagree with? Am I right in thinking this is what is annoying you?
Not completely sure what he's getting at either. I think it's not that it's a lecturer he disagrees with specifically, it's that the content and politics of that lecturer are revisionist, anti-Irish or anti-Irish nationalism.

That, and the in fairness rather curious decision not to fund existing Irish Studies courses in California universities and instead to part fund a British Studies course.

Could do with a bit more information on it in fairness but when I lived in California the Irish-American community over there was quite touchy on this sort of thing.
Thanks for that.

I dont think that FF have anything to do with it. Id say it was prob decided by the actual consul over there with no consultation back to Ireland?

Are we supposed to ignore anything that isnt Irish?
 

smiffy

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cain1798 said:
Not completely sure what he's getting at either. I think it's not that it's a lecturer he disagrees with specifically, it's that the content and politics of that lecturer are revisionist, anti-Irish or anti-Irish nationalism.

That, and the in fairness rather curious decision not to fund existing Irish Studies courses in California universities and instead to part fund a British Studies course.

Could do with a bit more information on it in fairness but when I lived in California the Irish-American community over there was quite touchy on this sort of thing.
The link he's provided, though, does seem to support this claim (the link isn't broken; he just included an additional full-stop at the end. Here is the correct one).

What appears to have been part-sponsored by the Consul are two lectures under the "Irish Studies International Speakers Series", hosted by the Institute of European Studies at Berkeley. That's not really the same as funding an Irish studies course, and it certainly doesn't amount to funding a British studies course.

I don't know the background, but it's fair to assume that the funding was made available on foot of a request from the Institute, rather than at the whim of the Consul-General. The issue of preferential treatment given to one institution over another doesn't really arise, unless erigena can provide details of a similar request for funding for a different intitiative being rejected (as well the the costings of both proposals). It's certainly nonsense to suggest that this has anything to do with Fianna Fail).
 

erigena

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121
smiffy said:
cain1798 said:
Not completely sure what he's getting at either. I think it's not that it's a lecturer he disagrees with specifically, it's that the content and politics of that lecturer are revisionist, anti-Irish or anti-Irish nationalism.

That, and the in fairness rather curious decision not to fund existing Irish Studies courses in California universities and instead to part fund a British Studies course.

Could do with a bit more information on it in fairness but when I lived in California the Irish-American community over there was quite touchy on this sort of thing.
The link he's provided, though, does seem to support this claim (the link isn't broken; he just included an additional full-stop at the end. Here is the correct one).


I don't know the background, but it's fair to assume that the funding was made available on foot of a request from the Institute, rather than at the whim of the Consul-General. The issue of preferential treatment given to one institution over another doesn't really arise, unless erigena can provide details of a similar request for funding for a different intitiative being rejected (as well the the costings of both proposals). It's certainly nonsense to suggest that this has anything to do with Fianna Fail).
Wow. That’s really put it up to me.

Glad about the link.

Actually, as Aengus’s Dail question specified, there was indeed a request for funding for a course in Irish studies accredited by academic senate at UC Berkeley (unlike Ohlmeyer’s rant) and the consul general did refuse. Brit studies also refused to give the Irish taxpayers’ money they got (and they have plenty of their own) Following Aengus’s question, she (the consul)finally condescended to visit UC Berkeley (by many accounts the No. 1 public university in the world) to try and sort things out. As a matter of interest, the IDA and enterprise Ireland here are just as bad.

Her predecessor indeed ignored the existence of Irish studies in SF, Celtic studies, etc, and did indeed promise in writing not to give the money to brit Studies before he proceeded to do just that.


My understanding is that the responsible minister and his predecessor are both FF; that FF are in government and have been for some time; that govts. have a responsibility for this sort of thing. However, the FF magic has always involved portraying themselves as somehow rescuing the people from the state.
 

KeithM

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White Horse said:
Can the original poster please explain what he is trying to say in coherent and grammatically accurate English?
He's American, it may take some tiime.
 

smiffy

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erigena said:
Wow. That’s really put it up to me.

Glad about the link.

Actually, as Aengus’s Dail question specified, there was indeed a request for funding for a course in Irish studies accredited by academic senate at UC Berkeley (unlike Ohlmeyer’s rant) and the consul general did refuse. Brit studies also refused to give the Irish taxpayers’ money they got (and they have plenty of their own) Following Aengus’s question, she (the consul)finally condescended to visit UC Berkeley (by many accounts the No. 1 public university in the world) to try and sort things out. As a matter of interest, the IDA and enterprise Ireland here are just as bad.

Her predecessor indeed ignored the existence of Irish studies in SF, Celtic studies, etc, and did indeed promise in writing not to give the money to brit Studies before he proceeded to do just that.
You wouldn't happen to have a link to the Parliamentary Question, would you? Or even the date on which the question was taken (it's practically impossible to search the Oireachtas website). It would be useful to see exactly what was asked, and what answer was given.

In the meantime, I'd just reiterate that the link you provided doesn't support the claim you're making. All it shows is that two lectures (not just the Ohlmeyer lecture) was part sponsored by the Irish CG in San Francisco, and was organised as part of an Irish Studies series under the Institute of European Studies. There's nothing there which shows that British Studies was supported (although the British Studies institute also part sponsored the lectures).

I'd happily look at any other documentation that's available on this (which is why the PQ would be useful), but without knowing the details of the request which was turned down, including the costs and the basis for the rejection, as well as the same information in relation to the lectures linked to above, it's not possible to make any kind of valid comparison between the two items.

My understanding is that the responsible minister and his predecessor are both FF; that FF are in government and have been for some time; that govts. have a responsibility for this sort of thing. However, the FF magic has always involved portraying themselves as somehow rescuing the people from the state.
This is pretty ridiculous though. It's highly unlikely that something as small-scale as this would even cross the desk of the Minister so, unless you've got evidence to the contrary, the idea that there's some Fianna Fáil influence on the process of funding choices is a bit of a stretch.

I'd also raise an eyebrow at the idea that a written PQ from Aengus O'Snodaigh would have any influence over decision-making in the Department of Foreign Affairs, but without seeing the PQ in question, I'll reserve judgement.
 

erigena

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smiffy said:
erigena said:
Wow. That’s really put it up to me.

Glad about the link.

Actually, as Aengus’s Dail question specified, there was indeed a request for funding for a course in Irish studies accredited by academic senate at UC Berkeley (unlike Ohlmeyer’s rant) and the consul general did refuse. Brit studies also refused to give the Irish taxpayers’ money they got (and they have plenty of their own) Following Aengus’s question, she (the consul)finally condescended to visit UC Berkeley (by many accounts the No. 1 public university in the world) to try and sort things out. As a matter of interest, the IDA and enterprise Ireland here are just as bad.

Her predecessor indeed ignored the existence of Irish studies in SF, Celtic studies, etc, and did indeed promise in writing not to give the money to brit Studies before he proceeded to do just that.
You wouldn't happen to have a link to the Parliamentary Question, would you? Or even the date on which the question was taken (it's practically impossible to search the Oireachtas website). It would be useful to see exactly what was asked, and what answer was given.

In the meantime, I'd just reiterate that the link you provided doesn't support the claim you're making. All it shows is that two lectures (not just the Ohlmeyer lecture) was part sponsored by the Irish CG in San Francisco, and was organised as part of an Irish Studies series under the Institute of European Studies. There's nothing there which shows that British Studies was supported (although the British Studies institute also part sponsored the lectures).

I'd happily look at any other documentation that's available on this (which is why the PQ would be useful), but without knowing the details of the request which was turned down, including the costs and the basis for the rejection, as well as the same information in relation to the lectures linked to above, it's not possible to make any kind of valid comparison between the two items.

My understanding is that the responsible minister and his predecessor are both FF; that FF are in government and have been for some time; that govts. have a responsibility for this sort of thing. However, the FF magic has always involved portraying themselves as somehow rescuing the people from the state.
This is pretty ridiculous though. It's highly unlikely that something as small-scale as this would even cross the desk of the Minister so, unless you've got evidence to the contrary, the idea that there's some Fianna Fáil influence on the process of funding choices is a bit of a stretch.

I'd also raise an eyebrow at the idea that a written PQ from Aengus O'Snodaigh would have any influence over decision-making in the Department of Foreign Affairs, but without seeing the PQ in question, I'll reserve judgement.

Thanks so much for keeping this up as long as you have; the old adage about FF always having to be told no twice (as in e-voting/abolition of democracy) seems indeed to be true. If you look hard, you will find Aengus's written question. I note that your evidentiary standards seem to be rising ever higher, but that is typical of any dealings I have had with the bunch of criminals who destroyed the 1990's economy because they just would not listen to people who understood tech and economics. You must understand that a UC Berkeley-accredited course rather trumps anything you people and your sycophants will ever come up with

From the UC Berkeley Institute of European studies report 2005-2006 (write to them and get it), P. 13;

'Thanks to the generous support of the Irish government, Jane Ohlmeyer hosted a workshop on “revisionism; Debates on Irish history”'

Btw, every single other insinuation you made is garbage as proven above. Can you tell us; are you pro-revisionism, and the use of Irish taxpayers' money to fund it? Is revisionism FF policy? But in any event, keep it up, keep shooting yourself in the foot, and let's by all means continue this till election day. Please, however, do some research, and moderate your tone or this will be a long few weeks for the “Republican Party”
 

smiffy

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erigena said:
Thanks so much for keeping this up as long as you have; the old adage about FF always having to be told no twice (as in e-voting/abolition of democracy) seems indeed to be true. If you look hard, you will find Aengus's written question. I note that your evidentiary standards seem to be rising ever higher, but that is typical of any dealings I have had with the bunch of criminals who destroyed the 1990's economy because they just would not listen to people who understood tech and economics. You must understand that a UC Berkeley-accredited course rather trumps anything you people and your sycophants will ever come up with

From the UC Berkeley Institute of European studies report 2005-2006 (write to them and get it), P. 13;

'Thanks to the generous support of the Irish government, Jane Ohlmeyer hosted a workshop on “revisionism; Debates on Irish history”'

Btw, every single other insinuation you made is garbage as proven above. Can you tell us; are you pro-revisionism, and the use of Irish taxpayers' money to fund it? Is revisionism FF policy? But in any event, keep it up, keep shooting yourself in the foot, and let's by all means continue this till election day. Please, however, do some research, and moderate your tone or this will be a long few weeks for the “Republican Party”
Firstly, I've got nothing to do with Fianna Fail; I'm neither a member nor a supporter. The issue I was raising was that the link you provided didn't support the claim you were making. That still stands.

I'm not sure what you think the extract from the Institute of European Studies report proves. If you look at what I posted:

All (the link) shows is that two lectures (not just the Ohlmeyer lecture) was part sponsored by the Irish CG in San Francisco, and was organised as part of an Irish Studies series under the Institute of European Studies. There's nothing there which shows that British Studies was supported (although the British Studies institute also part sponsored the lectures).
That's exactly the same as what you've posted above.

Now, I've tried to find the PQ by looking through the Dail record, but I can't locate it. It's a simple enough request to ask if you could provide it, or at least let us know when the question was put.

I'm also unsure what 'insinuations' you think I'm making, or which have been proven to be 'garbage'. The point is quite simple. You appear to be complaining that the CG in San Francisco supported one initiative in Berkeley, but not another one. Without knowing the details of both requests for funding (and without having the text of the O'Snodaigh PQ and response) there's pretty much nothing that can validly be inferred.

On the 'revisionism' question, I think you'll need to clarify what exactly you mean by that term before I can tell you my view. I've found that it's a little catchphrase that tends to be thrown around a lot by people who prefer rants over serious debate, and who have little interest in serious historical study. I would say that I think any serious historian is going to be, by definition, a 'revisionist', as they'll try to approach historical debates with a fresh eye, rather than relying on myths and received wisdom. I doubt if this matches your definition of 'revisionism', though.

I'd add that I have absolutely no difficulty with the Department of Foreign Affairs part-sponsoring a talk by the Head of Modern History in TCD (or by Paul Sweeney, for that matter), as it's a fairly minor outlay and falls within the remit of that Department.

One final point: by 'tone' so far has been extremely moderate. If you like, I could be more candid, and refer to the difficulty to discussing anything with someone who is obviously unable to compose a coherent argument, but that's hardly going to get us very far, is it?
 

harvey

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smiffy

You characterize "revisionism" as "a little catchphrase that tends to be thrown around a lot by people who prefer rants over serious debate".

So why do you and others throw around the word "racist" here? Double standards?
 

cain1798

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Messages
418
smiffy said:
You wouldn't happen to have a link to the Parliamentary Question, would you? Or even the date on which the question was taken (it's practically impossible to search the Oireachtas website). It would be useful to see exactly what was asked, and what answer was given.
It's not that bad. Annoyingly the internal search engine in Leinster House is superb. Anyway, tried using the Oireachtas site and got no hits.
 
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