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FG divided over legislating for X Case


borntorum

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I know this is another abortion thread, but its purpose is not to discuss the issue per se, but rather the political impact on the leading party in government, so I'd ask that it be allowed stay on its own.

According to the Irish Independent, Fine Gael is 'tearing itself apart' over proposals to legislate to allow for the risk of suicide as a grounds for an abortion. The report states:

Fine Gael sources say there are up to 20 TDs in the party who would have reservations about where the line is drawn on granting permission for an abortion.
although it's not clear what that means. Are 20 TDs opposed to legislating for X? Are 20 TDs likely to vote against the government? The report also states that Kenny's decision that TDs won't have a free vote is causing difficulties within the FG PP.

Does FG wish now that it had supported the 2002 referendum? The party was led at the time by Michael Noonan, who was trying to impress the Irish Times by labelling himself a social democrat, and IIRC FG officially opposed the FF/PD proposed amendment on the basis that it excluded suicide. However, FG was split ten years ago as well, with leading figures like John Bruton supporting the government and even some members and supporters reportedly opposing it for the same reasons as Youth Defence and Dana, i.e. that it wasn't anti-abortion enough. At the time FG gave the government a bloody nose, although it had no impact at all on the next General Election. Do FGers wish that they had let the previous government deal with the problem, so that they don't have to now?

Fine Gael tearing itself apart over abortion law - National News - Independent.ie

/MOD/ This thread merged here: http://www.politics.ie/forum/current-affairs/201179-abortion-alan-shatter-statement.html /MOD/
 
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Tough Paddy

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Another abortion thread which will attract all the usual suspects with the the same opinions all over again! I guess some people's obsessions can't be helped!
 

Levellers

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This will split most parties to a greater or lesser extent.

I will predict that FG will make a dogs dinner of the legislation and will get a kicking over it.
 

True Republican

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fg need to stand up to labour on abortion and if 20 fg tds are prepared to defy kenny, well kenny is hardly going to expel 20 fg tds from the parliamentary party.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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FG divided on whether it should continue to ignore what the Supreme Court has said, and what the people have said.

FG divided on whether it should continue to subvert the will of the people.

Forget the fact this is about abortion; are there other areas where we think it is ok for FG to ignore the will of the people and the clear message from our Supreme Court?
 

sic transit

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Oddly enough I don't think they will because this is something that will be referred out to the Dail and we can expect plenty of amendments for any proposed legislation. Ultimately there will be enough cross-party support for this to go through.
 

Casualbets

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I know this is another abortion thread, but its purpose is not to discuss the issue per se, but rather the political impact on the leading party in government, so I'd ask that it be allowed stay on its own.

According to the Irish Independent, Fine Gael is 'tearing itself apart' over proposals to legislate to allow for the risk of suicide as a grounds for an abortion. The report states:



although it's not clear what that means. Are 20 TDs opposed to legislating for X? Are 20 TDs likely to vote against the government? The report also states that Kenny's decision that TDs won't have a free vote is causing difficulties within the FG PP.

Does FG wish now that it had supported the 2002 referendum? The party was led at the time by Michael Noonan, who was trying to impress the Irish Times by labelling himself a social democrat, and IIRC FG officially opposed the FF/PD proposed amendment on the basis that it excluded suicide. However, FG was split ten years ago as well, with leading figures like John Bruton supporting the government and even some members and supporters reportedly opposing it for the same reasons as Youth Defence and Dana, i.e. that it wasn't anti-abortion enough. At the time FG gave the government a bloody nose, although it had no impact at all on the next General Election. Do FGers wish that they had let the previous government deal with the problem, so that they don't have to now?

Fine Gael tearing itself apart over abortion law - National News - Independent.ie
Very good analysis, Borntorum. It was essentially an exercise in branding on behalf of Noonan. And yes, I'd say FG are very sorry they hadn't supported the 2002 referendum - though of course they won't say that.

I don't think Fine Gael is "tearing itself apart". But I do think that come next autumn - when we are likely to see the legislation, FG will be faced with a major backbench revolt if they tried to include the "suicide grounds" option...

The most likely result is that we will get clarifying legislation, but with the "suicide grounds" option excluded....
 

borntorum

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Another abortion thread which will attract all the usual suspects with the the same opinions all over again! I guess some people's obsessions can't be helped!
...says the first respondent to the OP :rolleyes:
 

seabhcan

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FG divided on whether it should continue to ignore what the Supreme Court has said, and what the people have said.

FG divided on whether it should continue to subvert the will of the people.

Forget the fact this is about abortion; are there other areas where we think it is ok for FG to ignore the will of the people and the clear message from our Supreme Court?
I imagine the 20 TDs are from predominately rural areas where the 'will of the people' is rabidly against abortion.
 

Eoin Coir

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I know this is another abortion thread, but its purpose is not to discuss the issue per se, but rather the political impact on the leading party in government, so I'd ask that it be allowed stay on its own.

According to the Irish Independent, Fine Gael is 'tearing itself apart' over proposals to legislate to allow for the risk of suicide as a grounds for an abortion. The report states:



although it's not clear what that means. Are 20 TDs opposed to legislating for X? Are 20 TDs likely to vote against the government? The report also states that Kenny's decision that TDs won't have a free vote is causing difficulties within the FG PP.

Does FG wish now that it had supported the 2002 referendum? The party was led at the time by Michael Noonan, who was trying to impress the Irish Times by labelling himself a social democrat, and IIRC FG officially opposed the FF/PD proposed amendment on the basis that it excluded suicide. However, FG was split ten years ago as well, with leading figures like John Bruton supporting the government and even some members and supporters reportedly opposing it for the same reasons as Youth Defence and Dana, i.e. that it wasn't anti-abortion enough. At the time FG gave the government a bloody nose, although it had no impact at all on the next General Election. Do FGers wish that they had let the previous government deal with the problem, so that they don't have to now?

Fine Gael tearing itself apart over abortion law - National News - Independent.ie
You may be correct indeed. In 2002 i thought the ref was reasonable, but left & right combined to defeat it. And as you say it did not help FG in 2002 election, but that was in era of Teflon , Celtic Tiger and country was " awash with money".
 

Keith-M

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Karma is indeed a bitch. We are where we are today due in no small part to the weakness of Garret FitzGerald, who allowed his government to be bounced into the "Pro life Amendment". At the time, Labour were opposed and Barry Desmond (Minister for Health) warned that putting the clause into the constitution, would lead the the unforeseen and potentially confusing impact. FG wouldn't listen fearing that they would lose ground to FF in the more conservative elements of the electorate and forced the referendum through. In the end it didn't matter a jot to FG support as FitzGerald's mismanagement of the economy counted for a lot more, in the opinion of the public.

Since the "x case", no government (including the ""Rainbow Coalition") has gone near this issue, in terms of legislation. They have put political expediency ahead of the public interest. It is only right and fitting that another FG/Labour government has to clean up the mess left by the weakness of the FitzGerald regime.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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I imagine the 20 TDs are from predominately rural areas where the 'will of the people' is rabidly against abortion.
We had something similar in relation to Northern Ireland (by similar, I mean a section of deciding to ignore the clear will of the people, when they disagreed with the majority)
 

Eoin Coir

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Karma is indeed a bitch. We are where we are today due in no small part to the weakness of Garret FitzGerald, who allowed his government to be bounced into the "Pro life Amendment". At the time, Labour were opposed and Barry Desmond (Minister for Health) warned that putting the clause into the constitution, would lead the the unforeseen and potentially confusing impact. FG wouldn't listen fearing that they would lose ground to FF in the more conservative elements of the electorate and forced the referendum through. In the end it didn't matter a jot to FG support as FitzGerald's mismanagement of the economy counted for a lot more, in the opinion of the public.

Since the "x case", no government (including the ""Rainbow Coalition") has gone near this issue, in terms of legislation. They have put political expediency ahead of the public interest. It is only right and fitting that another FG/Labour government has to clean up the mess left by the weakness of the FitzGerald regime.
It was not Garret's fault, he tried to change what Haughey came up with it in last days of his (CJH) dying admin in 1982. Garret and AG were correct, but a few FG nuts like Alice Glenn, Tom O Donnell voted for FF motion - the fiasco we now have.
 

Casualbets

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You may be correct indeed. In 2002 i thought the ref was reasonable, but left & right combined to defeat it. And as you say it did not help FG in 2002 election, but that was in era of Teflon , Celtic Tiger and country was " awash with money".
I honestly think it's a great shame that Fine Gael opposed it. It came very close to passing and while, let's face it, it wouldn't have ended the abortion debate - it would have at least given definitive answers to some of the questions in the debate.
 

Aindriu

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Just get it done FFS! Stop faffing around. It has already been stalled for 20 years. Even Italy has more lenient abortion law than here and they have the Pope living in Rome!
 

Keith-M

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It was not Garret's fault, he tried to change what Haughey came up with it in last days of his (CJH) dying admin in 1982. Garret and AG were correct, but a few FG nuts like Alice Glenn, Tom O Donnell voted for FF motion - the fiasco we now have.
I'm sorry, but have you ever thought of entering a circus? Then you might actually get paid for talking through your arse, and we'd be spared the job of correcting you.

Eighth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

slippy wicket

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I imagine the 20 TDs are from predominately rural areas where the 'will of the people' is rabidly against abortion.
Maybe they are looking into their hearts to see the will of the people , as I would bet that the views of the vast majority of people would be much less wrapped up in cant, religiousity and bollixollogy.
 

borntorum

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I honestly think it's a great shame that Fine Gael opposed it. It came very close to passing and while, let's face it, it wouldn't have ended the abortion debate - it would have at least given definitive answers to some of the questions in the debate.
It would have ended it politically unless and until some pregnant girl killed herself having been refused an abortion. Then the sh1t really would have hit the fan. But I don't think we'd be talking about abortion again unless that situation occurred.

The 2002 amendment or something similar wouldn't pass today though. So I think the pro-life movement is whistling in the wind when it calls for a third referendum to remove the suicide element.
 

Casualbets

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I'm sorry, but have you ever thought of entering a circus? Then you might actually get paid for talking through your arse, and we'd be spared the job of correcting you.
You can always when Keith-M hasn't had his coffee....
 
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