FG rewards and encourages fraud...if you're a farmer

ShoutingIsLeadership

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Leo Varadkar and his supporters have taken a great interest in alleged social welfare fraud, in recent weeks.

However, in December 2015, FG and the government paid a fine of €67.5 million euros to the EU. The fine was the result of farmers claiming EU payments for ineligible land.

Was the money sought from the crooked farmers? Were they punished? Were they named and shamed?

No, FG paid the fine out of public money.

FG doesn't care about fraud, it cares about its type of people, and the further division of society.


Ireland to be fined



Officials clash over
 
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ticketyboo

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Leo Varadkar and his supporters have taken a great interest in alleged social welfare fraud, in recent weeks.

However, in December 2015, FG and the government paid a fine of €67.5 million euros to the EU. The fine was the result of farmers claiming EU payments for ineligible land.

Was the money sought from the crooked farmers? Were they punished? Were they named and shamed?

No, FG paid the fine out of public money.

FG doesn't care about fraud, it cares about its type of people, and the further division of society.


Ireland to be fined



Officials clash over
I don't want to rush to judgement....are individual farmers deliberately falsifying claims...?
Or is there a more complex explanation....? It doesn't look good and would appear to be yet another example of crime covered up by the rich for the rich......somebody can put me right.....can they...?
 

Analyzer

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Pennies. Small money, as FG bailouts extend.

It would not even fit in a corner of Middle Abbey Street.

It would not even be visible in SiteSerf.

Anyway this is going to end.

"Red Cent" in a blueshirt is about to become Merkel's puppet ruler of Westland Provinz.
 

Analyzer

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Hello,

I am green with envy. Almost as green as a FAI jersey.

Regards
Denis
Malta.
 

Mushroom

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I don't want to rush to judgement....are individual farmers deliberately falsifying claims...?
Or is there a more complex explanation....? It doesn't look good and would appear to be yet another example of crime covered up by the rich for the rich......somebody can put me right.....can they...?

"Speaking in December, after the supplementary estimate was voted through, Agriculture Minister Simon Coveney said: "I expected - as did a lot of farmers - that they would have to pay for a significant portion of the disallowance."

Reading between the lines, it looks as though Simon and his DoA officials put up a case for a supplementary vote to the Dept of Public Exp. on late 2015, fully expecting that it would be refused, but curiously, it got through. I wonder whether the fact that a general election was coming up a few months later have influenced the four senior politicians who were overseeing public expenditure? Surely not!

I must dig up the Dáil discussions (if any) that led to this being voted through. Back later.
 

PO'Neill

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Probably should be titled " if you're a rich farmer " as in our wee gombeen state it's the ordinary person who always is short changed and the millionaire friends get off with it enriching themselves yet again.
 

Dame_Enda

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Socialism for the Rich and Capitalism for the Poor it seems.
 

Mushroom

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I must dig up the Dáil discussions (if any) that led to this being voted through. Back later.
OK so the Supplementary Estimate was sent to the Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine, which debated it on 8 December 2015.

During the debate, Deputies Penrose (Labour) O'Cuiv (Me Féin) and Ferris (IRA) welcomed the fact that the farmers wouldn't have to repay the monies that they had fraudulently claimed.

DEBATE

The Committee then sent back the agreed supplementary estimate to the Dáil which agreed it (and another 13 supplementary estimates) with minimal discussion.

In summary then - not a single party in the Dáil wanted the fraudulent farmers to be pursued for these payments - they all preferred to let the Irish taxpayers foot the bill.
 

Mushroom

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Probably should be titled " if you're a rich farmer " as in our wee gombeen state it's the ordinary person who always is short changed and the millionaire friends get off with it enriching themselves yet again.
With the uncritical support of Scum Féin Deputies Ferris and McDonald!

You really are a total cretin, aren't you, Pat?
 

Watcher2

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I don't want to rush to judgement....are individual farmers deliberately falsifying claims...?
Or is there a more complex explanation....? It doesn't look good and would appear to be yet another example of crime covered up by the rich for the rich......somebody can put me right.....can they...?
You don't want to rush to judgment and yet you classify all farmers as rich?
 

hiding behind a poster

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It's interesting to note that neither of the articles linked in the OP, and none of the comments so far, make any informed observation whatsoever as to where the fault for this, the reason or reasons why Ireland incurred this fine, may lie. I'm not an expert on how EU farm payments work, and I'm fairly certain nobody on this thread is either. But here's the thing - who interprets the EU rules on payment eligibility for farmers, after the Commission? Is it for the farmers to work out, or is it for the member state governments to interpret and pass on? Are the rules clear, unambiguous and transparent, or not? Did the Dept of Agriculture make an honest misinterpretation and thus unwittingly misinform farmers, or did they decide to chance it and hope they'd get away with it and thus make the farmers happy? Or did the same happen except done by the farmers? If it was the Department's fault, then yes, the State is liable for the bill. If it was the individual farmers or their organisations, then they should be liable. And if it was a combination, then they're all liable.

Now I don't know the answer to this, but I suspect nobody else here does, either. But hey, this is politics.ie, so let's all rush to judgement.
 

hiding behind a poster

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Socialism for the Rich and Capitalism for the Poor it seems.
So this only applied to "rich farmers", is that right? You might back that up with evidence, along with a definition of rich, whenever you're ready there FT.
 

Mushroom

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So this only applied to "rich farmers", is that right? You might back that up with evidence, along with a definition of rich, whenever you're ready there FT.
From Coveney's speech to the Committee, it appears that 19% of the claims submitted were fraudulent!

Given that the problem related to claims being submitted for ineligible marginal farmland, it seems probably that it was actually the smaller farmers who were the biggest fraudsters.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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OK so the Supplementary Estimate was sent to the Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine, which debated it on 8 December 2015.

During the debate, Deputies Penrose (Labour) O'Cuiv (Me Féin) and Ferris (IRA) welcomed the fact that the farmers wouldn't have to repay the monies that they had fraudulently claimed.

DEBATE

The Committee then sent back the agreed supplementary estimate to the Dáil which agreed it (and another 13 supplementary estimates) with minimal discussion.

In summary then - not a single party in the Dáil wanted the fraudulent farmers to be pursued for these payments - they all preferred to let the Irish taxpayers foot the bill.

That's some good digging, 'shroom
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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It's interesting to note that neither of the articles linked in the OP, and none of the comments so far, make any informed observation whatsoever as to where the fault for this, the reason or reasons why Ireland incurred this fine, may lie. I'm not an expert on how EU farm payments work, and I'm fairly certain nobody on this thread is either. But here's the thing - who interprets the EU rules on payment eligibility for farmers, after the Commission? Is it for the farmers to work out, or is it for the member state governments to interpret and pass on? Are the rules clear, unambiguous and transparent, or not? Did the Dept of Agriculture make an honest misinterpretation and thus unwittingly misinform farmers, or did they decide to chance it and hope they'd get away with it and thus make the farmers happy? Or did the same happen except done by the farmers? If it was the Department's fault, then yes, the State is liable for the bill. If it was the individual farmers or their organisations, then they should be liable. And if it was a combination, then they're all liable.

Now I don't know the answer to this, but I suspect nobody else here does, either. But hey, this is politics.ie, so let's all rush to judgement.
Give up the auld this is politics.ie bollocks. We don't have that detail, because our media hasn't bothered to ask, and Leo Varadkar sure as hell hadn't been running a campaign telling us to snitch on farmers.

I tell you something though - if someone gets a welfare payment incorrectly, they bloody well have to pay it back, even if the forms were unclear/it was an accident/insert other excuse
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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From Coveney's speech to the Committee, it appears that 19% of the claims submitted were fraudulent!

Given that the problem related to claims being submitted for ineligible marginal farmland, it seems probably that it was actually the smaller farmers who were the biggest fraudsters.


Imagine if one in five welfare claims were fraudulent
 

Analyzer

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Give up the auld this is politics.ie bollocks. We don't have that detail, because our media hasn't bothered to ask, and Leo Varadkar sure as hell hadn't been running a campaign telling us to snitch on farmers.

I tell you something though - if someone gets a welfare payment incorrectly, they bloody well have to pay it back, even if the forms were unclear/it was an accident/insert other excuse
The media is also on welfare. Bought and paid for.of course they will not ask.
 

Analyzer

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Give up the auld this is politics.ie bollocks. We don't have that detail, because our media hasn't bothered to ask, and Leo Varadkar sure as hell hadn't been running a campaign telling us to snitch on farmers.

I tell you something though - if someone gets a welfare payment incorrectly, they bloody well have to pay it back, even if the forms were unclear/it was an accident/insert other excuse
The media is also on welfare. Bought and paid for.of course they will not ask.
 

Mushroom

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Imagine if one in five welfare claims were fraudulent
They may well be! That's why the new Public Service Cards are so important. They'll help to stop members of certain ethnic minorities from having multiple identities.
 

PO'Neill

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With the uncritical support of Scum Féin Deputies Ferris and McDonald!

You really are a total cretin, aren't you, Pat?
Oh dear I'm supposed to know about every discussion in the Dail including one back in 2015, ah shure God help I'm jusht human.
 


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