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hiding behind a poster

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padraig said:
hiding behind a poster said:
drbob1972 said:
[quote="hiding behind a poster":2w1vi3a4]
drbob1972 said:
do you really want a government that is dependant on SF support?

I could cope with a government requiring the support of Ferris, Morgan, O'Snodaigh and O'Caolain - but it'd have to be those four effectively operating as an autonomous group. For all that Adams is party president, and McGuinness is whatever he is, the fact is that neither is elected to public office in the Republic, and the four TDs couldn't be going to him seeking approval on everything every other week. Plus, if the SF parliamentary party was actually formed as such, it might be possible to thus draw a distinction between it and the broader SF movement that effectively contains the IRA as well. And that would make it a lot easier for FG members to support it.
now what do you think the odds of that being the 4 mentioned above are SF members and proud of same, they would not function as independants but as SF representatives in the Dail, as to whether they'd make decisions on their own or differ to SF HQ what do you think ? it would in effect be Adam's and McGuiness using them as proxies

I'm not saying they should deny their membership of SF, or anything of the sort. What I'm saying is that the SF Parliamentary Party can't be subservient to unelected party grandees like Adams and McGuinness. And that's the case regardless of whether its FF or FG they coalesce with. (After all, its hard to see McGuinness deferring to Adams on much, now that he's First Minister and Gerry is nothing but an MP.
The Sinn Féin TD's are there to represent the people who elected them, and the party, therefore any decision on who to or not to support, if anyone in forming a government will be taking by the party leadership, if the other parties have a problem with that then tough shit.[/quote:2w1vi3a4]


But sooner or later the Parliamentary Party has to learn to stand on its own two feet, Padraig. If every party in government in the Republic kept going back to consult its membership over everything, nothing would ever get done. Whatever about formulating policy outside government, once in government the PP must lead, and the rest of the party will follow.

Anyway, I can see a situation developing where the PP would actually start getting tired of having to refer everything back to Adams - after all, by refusing to ever stand for election in the Republic, AND steering clear of a ministry in the Northern Assembly, he seems unwilling to ever put himself in a position where difficult decisions of government needed to be made - preferring to create some mystical role as a uncorrupted, unsullied father-figure of Republicanism. And those who have to take everyday decisions in the real political world would soon tire of deferring to such a person. Its the same reason the Irish Treaty delegation got so p*ssed off with DeValera in 1921.
 

padraig

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The TDs are part of the Leadership of the party, the Ard Chomhairle will decide on who they support if anyone, it is immaterial how other parties make decisions that is how it works in Sinn Féin. Why would Adams stand in the south, he is already elected to represent West Belfast, and as President of Sinn Féin he dosen't need to stand for the Dáil in the 26 they are a 32 county party.
 

32

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padraig said:
The TDs are part of the Leadership of the party, the Ard Chomhairle will decide on who they support if anyone, it is immaterial how other parties make decisions that is how it works in Sinn Féin. Why would Adams stand in the south, he is already elected to represent West Belfast, and as President of Sinn Féin he dosen't need to stand for the Dáil in the 26 they are a 32 county party.



Whatever happened to the "only Dáil that counted" which so many provisonals up to recent times banged on about?
 

hiding behind a poster

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padraig said:
The TDs are part of the Leadership of the party, the Ard Chomhairle will decide on who they support if anyone, it is immaterial how other parties make decisions that is how it works in Sinn Féin.
Thats fine, most smaller parties have to put coalition deals to their membership for approval in some way or other. What I'm asking is at what point the Parliamentary Party stands on its own two feet in government, and makes its own decisions without constantly referring back to party officials who are unelected in the jurisdiction in question. After all, we're never really had a situation where a party is in coalition without that party's leadership actually being part of that coalition. So I'm genuinely interested, how would SF deal with that?
 

rockofcashel

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Hiding, the problem is, you seem to consistently miss the point, simply because SF are a 32 county party, and no party in the 26 counties has ever had to countenance working with a party that straddles the border.

In practice, while you might not like the idea of party members consulting with Gerry Adams, in principle, it is no different from party members discussing matters with someone like me in Tipperary.

We're all in the one party, and therefore all decisions we make, are decisions made in the best interests of the party, for the people we represent.
 

theyshootPDsdontthey

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As fas as I know the Greens are a party that straddle the border :roll:
 

hiding behind a poster

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rockofcashel said:
Hiding, the problem is, you seem to consistently miss the point, simply because SF are a 32 county party, and no party in the 26 counties has ever had to countenance working with a party that straddles the border.

In practice, while you might not like the idea of party members consulting with Gerry Adams, in principle, it is no different from party members discussing matters with someone like me in Tipperary.

We're all in the one party, and therefore all decisions we make, are decisions made in the best interests of the party, for the people we represent.

No, there's two points I'm making - firstly, there's never been a party in coalition whose leadership weren't actually key members of that coalition - so while I don't doubt the importance of O'Caolain &Co, I'm sure you agree that the real leadership of SF seems to be Adams, McGuinness and McDonald - none of whom would be members of a coalition government in the Republic. So while obviously an initial coalition agreement would be put before the membership at a conference (as is done by many other parties), what I want to know is how much autonomy the SF members of that coalition would have on day-to-day matters at cabinet - I'm sure you agree that SF can't go calling special conferences every time there's an issue on which they and their coalition partners aren't in 100% agreement.

Secondly, my reference to referring back to the North wasn't implying that I have a difficulty with SF being a 32-county party - I was referring to the party leadership, which is overwhelmingly Northern-based - and again, as I said already, NOT actually within the coalition. That's where I'm concerned about a constant need to refer back to the party leadership.
 

Badboy

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I wonder are FG making the same mistake with SF now as they made with DL in 1992.

While SF are not my cup of tea, they have a mandate. FG and Labours prime mandate was to remove FF. They have to make the decision now as to whether SF or FF in Govt is worse for the people of Ireland.

Suppose there are a couple of bye-elections in the next 2 years, the arithmetic may become even shakier
 

rockofcashel

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Badboy said:
I wonder are FG making the same mistake with SF now as they made with DL in 1992.

While SF are not my cup of tea, they have a mandate. FG and Labours prime mandate was to remove FF. They have to make the decision now as to whether SF or FF in Govt is worse for the people of Ireland.

Suppose there are a couple of bye-elections in the next 2 years, the arithmetic may become even shakier
Correct Badboy.. and the silliest thing is, in five years time.. the argument will have disappeared completely.

Or, will FG, the great democrats, still consider Government with parties which have smaller popular mandates than SF have ?
 

The Trinity Politick

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rockofcashel said:
Badboy said:
I wonder are FG making the same mistake with SF now as they made with DL in 1992.

While SF are not my cup of tea, they have a mandate. FG and Labours prime mandate was to remove FF. They have to make the decision now as to whether SF or FF in Govt is worse for the people of Ireland.

Suppose there are a couple of bye-elections in the next 2 years, the arithmetic may become even shakier
Correct Badboy.. and the silliest thing is, in five years time.. the argument will have disappeared completely.

Or, will FG, the great democrats, still consider Government with parties which have smaller popular mandates than SF have ?
Sinn Feins favourite word "mandate"

Who cares how many FPV's any party has!? Its the seats, stupid! (not an insult)

Its simply. Sinn Fein are poised to gain seats in some areas, that much is certain. The PDs are poised to go nowhere. Greens also may gain at some stage. Labour......meh..... Fine Gael will gain at the expense of Fianna Fail ONLY if we offer a credible, workable and most important POPULAR alternative to FF. The injection of 20 new and old workhorses will allow this.

Creighton, Varadkar beside Bruton , Barret and Shatter really do link old FG to the new FG. Its an image FF does not have and must be played up. And indeed, please God, it will
 

The Trinity Politick

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fionn_socialist-Edward said:
Fine Gael will never go into government with republicans,ff or sf.
Correct. But Sinn Fein appear to be slowly moving towards the centre, so one wonders if they'll become a Fianna Fail stype "republican" party
 

The Collective.

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I think FG would go into gov with SF if the following happened.

1)-SF does well in the north.

2)-SF contains no members of the IRA.

3)-Gets alot of seats.

On my conditions, it be a 100 years.
 

Tiernanator

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You wont be able to use the SF boogeyman forever then Sinn Fein are going to do the business with FF. However I do think SF need to get rid of all their lefty crap and become a social democratic party if they are to be taken seriously. Unfortunately you reaped what you sowed this time around FG. Better luck next time.
 

Tiernanator

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When is Fine Gael going to get over the effing Civil War. I thought you won it. This anti-republican crap is boring and really outdated. Your are really cornering yourselves as blueshirts whether your "proud" of it or not. You need to start reaching out beyond to sensible republicans who might share lots of your opinions on economic and social matters. Not every republican is either hard left or hard right. Not all republicans are happy with the Bertie brand of republicanism. Lots of us are actually very social democrat in our politics outside the national question there are lots of commonalities in the republican family with most of the other parties in the ROI. By making us pariahs you give us strength to stay separate. "You made a circle to keep us out heretic, traitor a thing to flout but love and we had the wit to win we made a circle and brought you in". John Hume understood that, get with the programme. There will always be republicans in Ireland as sure as the rain falls. Whether you love or loathe us we ain't going away. After all "we're on the one road"
 

rockyracoon

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I would dearly hope that SF would never even consider going into government with FG. Ever. Full Stop.
 

Tiernanator

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Sad thing is rockyracoon they will go into coaliton with FF at some stage because of the attitude of FG/Labour. If SF had been more successful at this election do you really believe Bertie would not have found a way to do a U turn. The other parties are democrats alright but very selective democrats. Personally I think that FG shot itself in the foot. Enda would have been a sterling Taoiseach. I think he is quite a principled man, however the rabid anti-republican crap he was fed throughout his life has clouded his judgement. If people are against SF's less than perfect past then I would have thought that anything that made SF more accountable to the people of the state should be the way of absolutely copper-fastening SF into the democratic process. If Sinn Fein in government are accountable to the electorate it is much harder for them than being on the outside looking in and moaning about the failures of other parties/leaders. Doing the business is a lot tougher than sitting on the sidelines of politics. I am sure SF in the north are going to have to make some hard decisions in government and then go before their voters for judgement. That's real politics though. John Hume (God Bless him) eventually realised this and the imperfect peace in the north is a testament to this realisation. Many people who vote and support SF never really supported the campaign of violence. My family are mostly republicans but none of them ever stridently supported the "war". However if it was a toss up between the British armed forces and the republicans then it is no contest for them. This was the sad dilemma for many in nationalist areas of the north. Those people in the ROI who were sheilded from it cannot understand just how terrible things were for people in nationalist communities. They were trapped between a rock and hard place. I am sure the same went for loyalist communities. I for one was always arguing against the military campaign during the years of violence. However it is still much easier for people in the establishment parties to deal with republican people not as individuals and communities with differing ideas but rather as a feared homogenous rabble to be hated and marginalised. It truly is your loss if you continue to do this. Young Sinn Fein people like Pearse Doherty show that this attitude is going to come unstuck. He was even praised by FG for his good natured campaigning. I was particularly impressed with him during the campaign. If this is the calibre of new Sinn Fein then and I others will be turned on not turned off republican politics. However my continued support is conditional on one pivotal issue. No violence and no criminality.
 

eoinmcneil

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Reopening a very old discussion because I can’t start a new one and wanted to ask a question regarding FG’s strategy up to and particularly during the next election and Sinn Fein.

With Labour’s implosion the mathematics of coalition mean there are 3 leading scenarios in decreasing order of [solely mathematical ] possibility : FG/FF, FG/ST, FF/SF.

From an ideology perspective the least likely would seem to be FG/SF . Utterly aside from the national question, the positions taken over the economy in the last few years are diametrically opposed. So that leaves the other 2.

Given this, is there some fertile electoral ground for FG in pursuing the Anti Sinn fein vote ? –going back to “a vote for FF/anyone apart from FG opens the door to SF”. At least in theory, there is an opportunity to get FF in a pincer movement where its “soft “ voters [ those north of 17%] feel they need to put their money where their mouth is rather than trust the leadership after the election.

Questions: 1. would the fine Gael leadership categorically rule out coalition with SF? Where we stand now it seems a statement of the obvious.
2. How big is that ABSF vote- 30%? 40%? 50% Going down all the time I guess, but clearly still very substantial , on either a national question or economic basis.
3. Is the assumption that FF wouldn’t close the door to SF coalition correct?

Not interested in any “yiz’ll be slawthered” responses…
 

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