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Fine Gael difficulties is Labour's opportunity.


goatstoe

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
2,071
The George Lee fiasco is turning into an unseemly mess. The raging FG hacks and reps are spinning furiously to try and discredit Lee in an attempt to save Enda Kenny's hide. Everyone knows that Enda Kenny is a walking pr disaster, and FG either don't have the balls or an adequate replacement for him. No amount of spinning by FG hacks or the likes of Eoghan Harris is going to change this fact.

Harris it seems will spin for either FF or FG. It seems he's afraid that the current FG difficulties will allow Labour to make it a 3 way fight to become the biggest political party at the next GE. The possibility of Labour becoming the largest party is anathema to a conservative like Harris and he will say and spin absolutely anything in order to ensure that FF or FG continue as the biggest vote getters. Most importantly Harris is not alone in this task.

FF have been the largest party in power for too long, a change is needed that is clear. But it is equally clear that FG is not the answer. It is likely that FG will play a role in the next govt. however it is time for Labour to ensure that either FG or FF's role in the next govt. will be a surrogate one. The people of this country are educated enough now to see through the spin of the conservative hacks who spend all their working hours maintaining the status quo.

I firmly believe that the people of this country are ready to break the stranglehold of the FF/FG hegemony. The question is do Labour have what it takes to grab this opportunity and offer a real social and economic alternative to the conservative FF/FG block? For Labour I believe the opportunity is there now, they must begin to put some clear blue water between themselves and FG, and pull out all the stops in order to gain the most seats after the next GE.
 


toughbutfair

Well-known member
Joined
May 28, 2009
Messages
9,794
FG is a party with an economically responsible ideology, Labour support unions and driving up costs.

The two are not compatible and don't have the same type of person supporting them.

FG are dead in Dublin inner city and other places with low education while Labour are dead in the rural areas.
 

Edo

Well-known member
Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
3,052
The George Lee fiasco is turning into an unseemly mess. The raging FG hacks and reps are spinning furiously to try and discredit Lee in an attempt to save Enda Kenny's hide. Everyone knows that Enda Kenny is a walking pr disaster, and FG either don't have the balls or an adequate replacement for him. No amount of spinning by FG hacks or the likes of Eoghan Harris is going to change this fact.

Harris it seems will spin for either FF or FG. It seems he's afraid that the current FG difficulties will allow Labour to make it a 3 way fight to become the biggest political party at the next GE. The possibility of Labour becoming the largest party is anathema to a conservative like Harris and he will say and spin absolutely anything in order to ensure that FF or FG continue as the biggest vote getters. Most importantly Harris is not alone in this task.

FF have been the largest party in power for too long, a change is needed that is clear. But it is equally clear that FG is not the answer. It is likely that FG will play a role in the next govt. however it is time for Labour to ensure that either FG or FF's role in the next govt. will be a surrogate one. The people of this country are educated enough now to see through the spin of the conservative hacks who spend all their working hours maintaining the status quo.

I firmly believe that the people of this country are ready to break the stranglehold of the FF/FG hegemony. The question is do Labour have what it takes to grab this opportunity and offer a real social and economic alternative to the conservative FF/FG block? For Labour I believe the opportunity is there now, they must begin to put some clear blue water between themselves and FG, and pull out all the stops in order to gain the most seats after the next GE.
Good luck - if you think FG are having difficulties adjusting to the new situation - go and join the labour party - I guarantee you that you'll have left in half the time George Lee took to decide politics was not for him

Dont take it from me - just buy Pat Rabbite a pint next time you see him and ask him about the joys having to get all the Labour party's little fiefdoms and empires to actually do something positive collectively - the poor man was the verge of a nervous breakdown even talking about it.
 

redhead101

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
Messages
834
...Labour are dead in the rural areas...
* TDs places like in Galway West, Longford Westmeath, Wicklow, Wexford, Waterford, Cork East, Kildare North, Kildare South.

* MEPs in Munster and Leinster.

* Local councillors in all but three counties, including County Councillors in places like Donegal, Clare and Offaly.

Dead in rural areas? You wish!
 
Last edited:

Corkoniense

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
57
The George Lee fiasco is turning into an unseemly mess. The raging FG hacks and reps are spinning furiously to try and discredit Lee in an attempt to save Enda Kenny's hide. Everyone knows that Enda Kenny is a walking pr disaster, and FG either don't have the balls or an adequate replacement for him. No amount of spinning by FG hacks or the likes of Eoghan Harris is going to change this fact.

Harris it seems will spin for either FF or FG. It seems he's afraid that the current FG difficulties will allow Labour to make it a 3 way fight to become the biggest political party at the next GE. The possibility of Labour becoming the largest party is anathema to a conservative like Harris and he will say and spin absolutely anything in order to ensure that FF or FG continue as the biggest vote getters. Most importantly Harris is not alone in this task.

FF have been the largest party in power for too long, a change is needed that is clear. But it is equally clear that FG is not the answer. It is likely that FG will play a role in the next govt. however it is time for Labour to ensure that either FG or FF's role in the next govt. will be a surrogate one. The people of this country are educated enough now to see through the spin of the conservative hacks who spend all their working hours maintaining the status quo.

I firmly believe that the people of this country are ready to break the stranglehold of the FF/FG hegemony. The question is do Labour have what it takes to grab this opportunity and offer a real social and economic alternative to the conservative FF/FG block? For Labour I believe the opportunity is there now, they must begin to put some clear blue water between themselves and FG, and pull out all the stops in order to gain the most seats after the next GE.
All they have to do is refuse to go into coalition with either FF or FG in the next election, forcing FF and FG into a conservative right wing government, and leaving Labour to lead the opposition for the first time in their history. Then for the first time in OUR history, we can have a choice between conservatives and social democrats......just like every other grown up country.

The thing is...have Labour the cojones to do this? Or do they not understand the difference between power and office?
 

goatstoe

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
2,071
FG is a party with an economically responsible ideology, Labour support unions and driving up costs.

The two are not compatible and don't have the same type of person supporting them.

FG are dead in Dublin inner city and other places with low education while Labour are dead in the rural areas.
I agree that Labour and FG are not compatible but whenever they manage to get into govt. they are usually together. Because of this in the minds of many people, Labour's identity is attached to that of FG. I believe there is an appetite for change among a lot of people both in economic and social issues. You say that FG are dead in urban areas of low education? I reckon there is a new educated vote coming on stream that Labour can harness. I reckon this educated younger vote are fed up of FF being perenially in power. I also believe they don't want FG, otherwise FG would have won the last election. This younger vote is not in my opinion particularly left wing but they are not conservative certainly on social/ education/ religous issues in the way that FF and especially FG continue to appear to be. Labour can position themselves to pick up this vote but they need to identify it and pursue it aggresively..
 

hiding behind a poster

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 8, 2005
Messages
48,389
The George Lee fiasco is turning into an unseemly mess. The raging FG hacks and reps are spinning furiously to try and discredit Lee in an attempt to save Enda Kenny's hide. Everyone knows that Enda Kenny is a walking pr disaster, and FG either don't have the balls or an adequate replacement for him. No amount of spinning by FG hacks or the likes of Eoghan Harris is going to change this fact.

Harris it seems will spin for either FF or FG. It seems he's afraid that the current FG difficulties will allow Labour to make it a 3 way fight to become the biggest political party at the next GE. The possibility of Labour becoming the largest party is anathema to a conservative like Harris and he will say and spin absolutely anything in order to ensure that FF or FG continue as the biggest vote getters. Most importantly Harris is not alone in this task.

FF have been the largest party in power for too long, a change is needed that is clear. But it is equally clear that FG is not the answer. It is likely that FG will play a role in the next govt. however it is time for Labour to ensure that either FG or FF's role in the next govt. will be a surrogate one. The people of this country are educated enough now to see through the spin of the conservative hacks who spend all their working hours maintaining the status quo.

I firmly believe that the people of this country are ready to break the stranglehold of the FF/FG hegemony. The question is do Labour have what it takes to grab this opportunity and offer a real social and economic alternative to the conservative FF/FG block? For Labour I believe the opportunity is there now, they must begin to put some clear blue water between themselves and FG, and pull out all the stops in order to gain the most seats after the next GE.
Sorry, but there's far too many things in that post that are presumed to be fact, but not backed up by evidence.
 

hiding behind a poster

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 8, 2005
Messages
48,389
All they have to do is refuse to go into coalition with either FF or FG in the next election, forcing FF and FG into a conservative right wing government
No, forcing another general election in which Labour would suffer.

and leaving Labour to lead the opposition for the first time in their history.
Ah, there it is. You want FF and FG to do the hard work for Labour, and grant them leadership of the Opposition on a plate, because that'd suit some textbook of political theory.

Then for the first time in OUR history, we can have a choice between conservatives and social democrats......just like every other grown up country.
Firstly, that's an oversimplification of the positions of all three parties. Secondly, if the Irish people wanted that, they'd vote for it. The fact that, in election after election, they haven't voted for it, suggests that that isn't what they want.
 

goatstoe

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
2,071
Good luck - if you think FG are having difficulties adjusting to the new situation - go and join the labour party - I guarantee you that you'll have left in half the time George Lee took to decide politics was not for him

Dont take it from me - just buy Pat Rabbite a pint next time you see him and ask him about the joys having to get all the Labour party's little fiefdoms and empires to actually do something positive collectively - the poor man was the verge of a nervous breakdown even talking about it.
Under Dick Spring Labour appeared to unite these fiefdoms as you call them. If they did it then they can do it now. The prize of becoming the largest party in the state should be enough to concentrate their minds, and develop a coherent set of alternative social policies that people are crying out for.
 

Corkoniense

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
57
FG is a party with an economically responsible ideology, Labour support unions and driving up costs.

The two are not compatible and don't have the same type of person supporting them.

FG are dead in Dublin inner city and other places with low education while Labour are dead in the rural areas.
The highlighted sentence is the only statement verging on the truth. The rest is just ignorant nonsense. FG supporting auctioneers and councillors gazumped property throughout the boom along with their FF buddies and ruined the cost base of this country.
 

goatstoe

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
2,071
Sorry, but there's far too many things in that post that are presumed to be fact, but not backed up by evidence.

I think there is a strong possibility that the numbers could stack up into a 3 way scrap for the prize of largest party. Labour should pull out all the stops in order to make this possibility a reality. There is a younger vote out there that FG can't reach, FF have been in power too long and have gone stale, this is where Labour can flourish. Labour should devise policies of educational and social reform that will attract this younger vote. This younger vote I speak of is well educated, cosmopolitian and is not conservative particularly when it comes to social issues. FG are way too conservative to offer the alternatives that people want. This is a time of economic and social flux. Any party that offers a well thought out alternative group of options on social/educational issues can pick up the thread of this emerging young educated vote. Labour are the party best positioned to do this.
 

uriah

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
3,618
I think there is a strong possibility that the numbers could stack up into a 3 way scrap for the prize of largest party. Labour should pull out all the stops in order to make this possibility a reality. There is a younger vote out there that FG can't reach, FF have been in power too long and have gone stale, this is where Labour can flourish. Labour should devise policies of educational and social reform that will attract this younger vote. This younger vote I speak of is well educated, cosmopolitian and is not conservative particularly when it comes to social issues. FG are way too conservative to offer the alternatives that people want. This is a time of economic and social flux. Any party that offers a well thought out alternative group of options on social/educational issues can pick up the thread of this emerging young educated vote. Labour are the party best positioned to do this.
But how many of the 'young educated' will bother to vote?
 

Corkoniense

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
57
No, forcing another general election in which Labour would suffer.

Maybe, maybe. Time to force the Irish people to decide what they want, not give them the tweedledum/tweedledee of FG/Lab versus FF


Ah, there it is. You want FF and FG to do the hard work for Labour, and grant them leadership of the Opposition on a plate, because that'd suit some textbook of political theory.

By "hard work" you mean imposing vicious cuts on public services, which is straight out of the rightwing textbook of political theory. That is fine for FG and yes, for FF too. It should be anathema to Labour. FG are a relatively honest, economically competent political party with a penchant for shooting itself in the foot (cf George Lee) that believes in the so-called free market, in denominational education and the right of private citizens to kill travellers who break into their homes. FF are completely corrupt, economically incompetent and incomparably deviant successful politcal party that believes in the so-called free market, in denominational education and the right of private citizens to kill travellers who break into their homes. They should be forced together and Labour should offer the alternative, just like in any other mature western democracy.



Firstly, that's an oversimplification of the positions of all three parties. Secondly, if the Irish people wanted that, they'd vote for it. The fact that, in election after election, they haven't voted for it, suggests that that isn't what they want.

When I'm in a good mood, I like to think that the Irish people are denied a political choice, as there is no real alternative between a contradictory left-right coalition of FG/Lab and a contradictory (in every sense) FF led Govt. When I'm in a bad mood, I realise that the Irish people are spoiled and their innate conservatism (something will turn up) allows them to pretend that FG/Lab is an atlernative to FF for a few years, after which they revert to FF and all their jobbery and corruption. I'm all for giving the Irish people a choice. I'm against spoiling the Irish people yet again; it's up to Labour to point that out.
 

Cato

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Joined
Aug 21, 2005
Messages
20,559
Its up to Labour to get them. They are in the best poition to do so.
I take it that you have failed to notice the age profile of the Labour TDs...
 

hiding behind a poster

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 8, 2005
Messages
48,389
I think there is a strong possibility that the numbers could stack up into a 3 way scrap for the prize of largest party. Labour should pull out all the stops in order to make this possibility a reality. There is a younger vote out there that FG can't reach, FF have been in power too long and have gone stale, this is where Labour can flourish. Labour should devise policies of educational and social reform that will attract this younger vote. This younger vote I speak of is well educated, cosmopolitian and is not conservative particularly when it comes to social issues. FG are way too conservative to offer the alternatives that people want. This is a time of economic and social flux. Any party that offers a well thought out alternative group of options on social/educational issues can pick up the thread of this emerging young educated vote. Labour are the party best positioned to do this.
No they're not. Labour's parliamentary party are almost entirely over 50. Why don't you go to MRBI and RedC, and take a look at the way young voters are ACTUALLY voting? That'll show you something you mightn't like to see.
 
D

Deleted member 17573

But how many of the 'young educated' will bother to vote?
I can only speak from my own experience - and the "young educated" I know despise politicians, reject politics as a waste of time and, even when they do pay any heed, they won't touch anything left-wing or that has association with trade unions. What they want is the return of the good old days - and to them this means the celtic tiger - and they see this being achieved thro their own hard work.
 

goatstoe

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Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
2,071
I take it that you have failed to notice the age profile of the Labour TDs...
You could be right, but isn't the age profile across the board old(ish). Anyway, there is nothing to stop them going after this younger vote no matter what their age profile is. They need to come up with a narrarive that speaks to them.
 

goatstoe

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Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
2,071
No they're not. Labour's parliamentary party are almost entirely over 50. Why don't you go to MRBI and RedC, and take a look at the way young voters are ACTUALLY voting? That'll show you something you mightn't like to see.
It doen't matter what their age profile is so long as they come up with fresh alternative social policies. The polls you refer to may show where the younger vote currently resides, I reckon they can be attracted away from there. The younger educated vote is disaffected and is up for grabs.
 

Sue Donim

Active member
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
199
It all a storm in a Lee cup - when FG win the by-election people will be saying George who? Stop clutching at straws all you FF gombeens and lefty also-rans. Onwards and upwards to FG one party government in 2012.
 

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