Fine Gael on a United Ireland!!!

meriwether

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TradCat said:
I'm flattered by the pesonal attacks but I'm a Sinn Fein voter not a Fianna Fail voter. FF are better than FG on the north but neither of them are all-Ireland parties.
How are they better?
Because they have green posters?
Becasue they like the Wolf Tones more?
 


Corcaigh33

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Oh dear Fr Hank, be very careful. I look at posters on here (FG supporters) and the vast majority of them have rational and reasonable concerns about ensuring that instead of assimilating Unionism in a UI we embrace it and integrate it properly. In the same way that I have described in my 2nd post here. There are one or two who could be described "crypto-unionist" or if you want to use the term "west brits" yea. But I wouldn't bring my parents into any debate here or yours for the matter, I presume you are a big enough boy to have developed your own opinions in an independent and mature fashion just like the rest of us.
 

Respvblica

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Kf said:
FG a united ireland party, yeah right in the same way that Zhirinovsky is a liberal. They align themsleves with unionism which is fundamentally opposed to a UI. Square that?
When did FG ally themselves with unionism?
 

meriwether

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Kf said:
FG a united ireland party, yeah right in the same way that Zhirinovsky is a liberal. They align themsleves with unionism which is fundamentally opposed to a UI. Square that?
Funnily enough, the GFA has resulted in SF aligning themselves with the DUP and UUP before that.
But the GFA will deliver a UI. Wont it?
 

ON THE ONE ROAD

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Respvblica said:
If they stated officially that they were against a united Ireland I wouldn't have anything more to do with them., but I dont have to worry about it because thas wont happen.

Some northerenrs think Fine Gael by their actions(or lack of) are a partitionist party who couldnt care a fig about the north. Its true that many in the south, not just FG get involved in local issues and forget about the north- the easy option. Personally in retrospect the saddest part of the whole thing, being a southerener, was the inaction or inability to do anything from 1922-1985. We were totally excluded, and we played the Realpolitik game because we had to. Taking over the north militarily was just not an option, and many would fear the economic consequences. Yet a really wicked apartheit state existed up there. What to do? Well we werent in power much but there is no doubt that we were inspired by Michael Collins and the principals of consent, which most parties now follow.
Whatever form of free government we had, it would be the Government of the Irish Nation. All the other elements, old Unionists, Home Rulers, Devolutionists, would have to be allowed freedom and self- expression. The only way to build the nation solid and Irish is to effect these elements in a friendly national way---by attraction, not by compulsion, making them feel themselves welcomed into the Irish Nation, in which they can join and become absorbed, as long ago the Geraldines and the de Burgos became absorbed. (Path to Freedom)

I believe this inspired Garrett Fitzgerald's attitude(the son of a catholic and a northern protestant who both fought in the GPO in 1916). I see many others have followed in Collins's footsteps. It seems that they are the inevitable footsteps and it pleases me that Fine Gael were the first towards this realisation.

Earlier during those dark days of the 1950s,it was a Fine Gael led govt that chose to recognise the northern people by appointing republican Liam Kelly to Seanad. This is at a time when our people up there where practically forgotton, without hope. I also think that the enemies of FG have tried to make political capital out of our position by twisting it in a way so that it seems west brit- we are in league with the foreigner. I think that is without substance, extremely disingenuous and ultimately machievellian.
on the whole principal of consent thing. Is there a point your prepard to go to encounge. Iam not trying to be snotty here, over the last few months i've noticed your posts and you seem to come across as genuinely interested in all this. But from a FG perspective is it like waiting patiently respectfully for unionists to give up there viginity on this issue or do you think FG are alloud to chase.
 

supamolli

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Corcaigh33 said:
1. Unionist retain their British passports and citizenship in the same way nationalists have the right to citizenship here at the moment.
2. Unionists have the right to march on the 12th anywhere they want provided they have the agreement of the community through which they are marching.
3. Union Jacks be flown from civic buildings on the 12th of July.
4. Ulster Scots be added to the constitution as an official language.
5. I am sure there could be some arrangement arrived at where taxes could be paid to Westminster instead of Dublin if push came to shove.
6. in the context of a UI outside the commonwealth, the national anthem to be changed to something which appreciates and is inclusive of both traditions.
7. A change to the national flag at a push as well.

That is a damn sight more than nationalists in the 6 counties are afforded at the moment. I personally believe that in a UI we should seek to integrate the unionist culture and tradition in so far as possible into our own becuase as Fr Hank says they are Irish after all, even if they consider themselves Northern Irish or just British themselves.

So it's far from ignorance I am being in my post above.
1. That's an issue for the British government not an Irish one.
2. The current constitutional right to assembly covers this
3. Will we be flying the Polish one on their national holiday too or do we have discrimation against our other minorities?
4. Not a feasible option. Recognised yes but official no.
5. No they couldn't. That is crazy.
6. Not an issue if the country wants it
7. Not an issue if the country wants it.

Unionists will make up 10% of the island population by 2020. If unification ever does come about then they should be protected like everyone else not mollycoddled into thinking that they still live in a British monarchy when in reality they are now in an Irish Republic.
 

Cael

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Respvblica said:
Well we werent in power much but there is no doubt that we were inspired by Michael Collins and the principals of consent, which most parties now follow.
It seems the "principal of consent" only extends to Unionists. Nationalists were never given the opportunity to live in a 32 County Republic. They were just sold into a gerrymandered six county fantasy land.
 

dgl

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Kwame-Nkrumah said:
dgl said:
[quote="Fr. Hank Tree":tqc4vq0m]
TradCat said:
Fine Gael think a united Ireland should come about by consent but they wouldn't consent to it.
Eh..yes we would.

Are you(and Corcaigh) one of these FF hacks who believes that all Fine Gael members are "crypto-unionist self-loathing unpatriotic west-brits" simply because your daddy told you so?
And I'd bet you (Trad Cat) use the Willie O'Dea pronunciation FYNE-GALE just to demonstrate your lack of knowledge of the Irish language too!
Actually I think it is very questionable whether Fine Gael as pronounced by the blueshirts is proper irish. The presumption that it isn't proper Irish is why some peopl pronounce it as it is spelled.[/quote:tqc4vq0m]

fine [ainmfhocal baininscneach den cheathrú díochlaonadh]
cine; treibh; críoch treibhe.

Where's the questionability here?

Find me any word in Irish ending "ine" that's pronounced to rhyme with "mine"
 

meriwether

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Ciaránpg said:
Wen exactly did FG align themselves wit unionism???
They aligned themselves with Unionism in Kf's head sometime ago, and have not shifted from this alliance since.
 

Fr. Hank Tree

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Corcaigh33 said:
There are one or two who could be described "crypto-unionist" or if you want to use the term "west brits" yea.
One or two doesn't a party make.

FG has always favoured Unity by Consent.
FG has done as much for Northern Ireland as FF did by virtue of the Anglo-Irish agreement,(which FF voted against,whereas we pro-GFA) and thus spawning the peace process. We also delivered the earlier doomed Sunningdale agreement which was very similar to the GFA but more favourable to Nationalists.
 

Enigma

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Cael said:
It seems the "principal of consent" only extends to Unionists. Nationalists were never given the opportunity to live in a 32 County Republic. They were just sold into a gerrymandered six county fantasy land.
Yeah but that was nearly 100 years ago. You can't really right every wrong that occured in history. It would get you nowhere. The reality is that there is a six county region called Northern Ireland, and the people in that region should be permitted the right to chose the flag they live under.

No amount of wishing that things had happened differently in the past will change this reality.
 

Respvblica

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ON THE ONE ROAD said:
Respvblica said:
If they stated officially that they were against a united Ireland I wouldn't have anything more to do with them., but I dont have to worry about it because thas wont happen.

Some northerenrs think Fine Gael by their actions(or lack of) are a partitionist party who couldnt care a fig about the north. Its true that many in the south, not just FG get involved in local issues and forget about the north- the easy option. Personally in retrospect the saddest part of the whole thing, being a southerener, was the inaction or inability to do anything from 1922-1985. We were totally excluded, and we played the Realpolitik game because we had to. Taking over the north militarily was just not an option, and many would fear the economic consequences. Yet a really wicked apartheit state existed up there. What to do? Well we werent in power much but there is no doubt that we were inspired by Michael Collins and the principals of consent, which most parties now follow.
Whatever form of free government we had, it would be the Government of the Irish Nation. All the other elements, old Unionists, Home Rulers, Devolutionists, would have to be allowed freedom and self- expression. The only way to build the nation solid and Irish is to effect these elements in a friendly national way---by attraction, not by compulsion, making them feel themselves welcomed into the Irish Nation, in which they can join and become absorbed, as long ago the Geraldines and the de Burgos became absorbed. (Path to Freedom)

I believe this inspired Garrett Fitzgerald's attitude(the son of a catholic and a northern protestant who both fought in the GPO in 1916). I see many others have followed in Collins's footsteps. It seems that they are the inevitable footsteps and it pleases me that Fine Gael were the first towards this realisation.

Earlier during those dark days of the 1950s,it was a Fine Gael led govt that chose to recognise the northern people by appointing republican Liam Kelly to Seanad. This is at a time when our people up there where practically forgotton, without hope. I also think that the enemies of FG have tried to make political capital out of our position by twisting it in a way so that it seems west brit- we are in league with the foreigner. I think that is without substance, extremely disingenuous and ultimately machievellian.
on the whole principal of consent thing. Is there a point your prepard to go to encounge. Iam not trying to be snotty here, over the last few months i've noticed your posts and you seem to come across as genuinely interested in all this. But from a FG perspective is it like waiting patiently respectfully for unionists to give up there viginity on this issue or do you think FG are alloud to chase.
Good point and difficult to answer. I think its down maybe to the courage of personality and timing with regard to conditions. The Peace process was a good excuse to sit back and watch and claim that we were just being loyal to the governments position but since Garrett left the interest in doing something creative has wained and FF have made more of teh running(of course they have had govt most of the time). Still its a major pity because I do believe that Fine Gael do have a interesting angle to add. I hope Fine Gael will at least be proactive and reactive. Stepping stones have to be crossed, not waited upon.
 

Jim236

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Well so far the best proposal Fine Gael have made to achieve a United Ireland is to establish a 32 county dual monarchy. This was a proposal that was clearly aimed to appeal to Unionists, and I think its a bloody insult to the Irish people that FG would actually propose to abandon the established Republic and favour a monarchy just to appeal to Unionists.

1. Unionist retain their British passports and citizenship in the same way nationalists have the right to citizenship here at the moment.
2. Unionists have the right to march on the 12th anywhere they want provided they have the agreement of the community through which they are marching.
3. Union Jacks be flown from civic buildings on the 12th of July.
4. Ulster Scots be added to the constitution as an official language.
5. I am sure there could be some arrangement arrived at where taxes could be paid to Westminster instead of Dublin if push came to shove.
6. in the context of a UI outside the commonwealth, the national anthem to be changed to something which appreciates and is inclusive of both traditions.
7. A change to the national flag at a push as well.
1. No I would be completely opposed to such a system as it would go against unity, the fact that we would have 2 different nationalities in 1 country, this is not unity, it is partition without a border.
2. I agree that parts of Unionist culture should be accepted and embraced, however, I would not expect there to be a good reaction to Orange Order marches going through Irish towns in the 26 counties because of the reputation the OO now have due to some of their members being involved in Loyalist paramilitary activity. But definitly, outside of the OO, I would be willing to accept part of Unionist culture as Irish culture in a UI.
3. Absolutely not, again, this would go completely against the term unity, the fact that we would have 2 flags under 1 nation, not to mention the fact that that flag is an insult to many Irish people, and there are much better ways for Unionists to express their culture than rubbing flags in Nationalists faces.
4. Ulster Scots is no more than a dialect of English, which is already an official language. Ulster Scots is also spoken by VERY few people on this island, and just because Unionists claim Ulster Scots as their language in the same way Nationalists do Irish, doesn't mean it should become an official language in a UI, it would just be completely unjustified.
5. Thats a crazy suggestion, under any 32 county UI, any relevence of interference on the North from London would be removed, and as such they would have no say in Irish internal affairs or how we run our taxes, as well as the fact it would be impossible to implement.
6. I would open be open to suggestions on a new anthem in a UI, but only if it was as Gaeilge.
7. Again, I would be open to a new flag, however, I don't see any problem with the current one as it conveys peace between Republicans and Unionists, how exactly is this offending? If it is their claim that our flag was used to kill Unionists and as such is offending, then the Union Jack which they are so proud to represent them should be changed also as it was used to butcher thousands of Irish in the North too, not to mention tens of millions around the world too.
 

drbob1972

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so Jim236 you want a UI on your terms and feck the unionists then ?
 

Respvblica

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Fr. Hank Tree said:
Corcaigh33 said:
There are one or two who could be described "crypto-unionist" or if you want to use the term "west brits" yea.
One or two doesn't a party make.
And he's urging people to vote against us as we'll apparantly be weak on Sinn Fein(Eoghan Harris I mean).
 

White Horse

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Corcaigh33 said:
1. Unionist retain their British passports and citizenship in the same way nationalists have the right to citizenship here at the moment.
2. Unionists have the right to march on the 12th anywhere they want provided they have the agreement of the community through which they are marching.
3. Union Jacks be flown from civic buildings on the 12th of July.
4. Ulster Scots be added to the constitution as an official language.
5. I am sure there could be some arrangement arrived at where taxes could be paid to Westminster instead of Dublin if push came to shove.
6. in the context of a UI outside the commonwealth, the national anthem to be changed to something which appreciates and is inclusive of both traditions.
7. A change to the national flag at a push as well.

So it's far from ignorance I am being in my post above.
There is a generosity in your proposals that was not afforded to Northern nationalists. However, I disagree funamentally with your approach.

A cohesive successful united Ireland must inspire loyalty and a sense of belonging by all people on the island. Your proposals treat unionists as a foreign people with semi-automonous rights. It is a variation of the failed "multi-cultural" approach as seen in other countries.

The challenge we face is how to create an Ireland and a definition of Irishness that encompasses the British people of Northern ireland.

Fine Gael is the only party in Ireland remotely interested in addressing such a question.
 

Jim236

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drbob1972 said:
so Jim236 you want a UI on your terms and feck the unionists then ?
Did I say that? I'm all for compromise, as its the only way we will achieve a United Ireland, however, some of the suggestions made by Corcaigh would not express unity. I'm completely opposed to any progress being made without talking with Unionists, they'll be a part of this United Ireland, so as such they have just as much a say as anyone. However, I don't believe we should accept all things Unionist in an all-Ireland Republic, such as being able to wave Union Jacks along streets in the North, for obvious reasons, this is where a new flag might be a good idea, and I don't believe Unionists should have the right to British citizenship, thats not solely the Irish governments decision, thats the decision of the British government also, but again it would not express unity.
So I'm not saying feck the Unionists, I'm just saying there can be compromise, but certain issues cannot be compromised for the sake of Unionist approval, and I've explained my reasons for that.
 

st333ve

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Fg are a partitionist party.
When they say "ireland" they mean no north.
Look at their daft contract if you want evidence of a partitionist party.
They have no interest in the north like FF have.
Theres slogans and theres actions.
 

meriwether

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st333ve said:
Fg are a partitionist party.
When they say "ireland" they mean no north.
Look at their daft contract if you want evidence of a partitionist party.
They have no interest in the north like FF have.
Theres slogans and theres actions.
Define 'interest'.
How has this 'interest' manifested itself?
 


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