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Fine Gael's Irish language policy


Dasayev

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Jul 7, 2006
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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but I'm only new here, so could any Fine Gaeler explain your Irish language policy?

Is it about making it a non-compulsory subject or is actually a meaningful examination of Irish within the education system?
 

Cael

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Dasayev said:
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but I'm only new here, so could any Fine Gaeler explain your Irish language policy?

Is it about making it a non-compulsory subject or is actually a meaningful examination of Irish within the education system?
Its about playing to the west brit gallery in the hope of getting some cheap votes.
 

Inishowen

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Oct 5, 2006
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In Fairness, Kenny was the only party leader to use gaelige last night. An interesting Irish syllabus, taught to pupils who choose to sit in that class, will do a lot more for the future of the language than the universal approach which has been a total failure since the foundation of the state.
 

meriwether

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Dasayev said:
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but I'm only new here, so could any Fine Gaeler explain your Irish language policy?

Is it about making it a non-compulsory subject or is actually a meaningful examination of Irish within the education system?
Its an attempt to promote the use of Irish.
The removal of the compulsary aspect should in no way be considered an impedement to this. It merely allows people who have no interest in the language to not have to do it.
Net loss to the irish language from not making people learn it who dont want to- zero.
 

Cael

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meriwether said:
Dasayev said:
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but I'm only new here, so could any Fine Gaeler explain your Irish language policy?

Is it about making it a non-compulsory subject or is actually a meaningful examination of Irish within the education system?
Its an attempt to promote the use of Irish.
The removal of the compulsary aspect should in no way be considered an impedement to this. It merely allows people who have no interest in the language to not have to do it.
Net loss to the irish language from not making people learn it who dont want to- zero.
This is incorrect. If you drop compulsary Irish, even students who like Irish will be forced to drop it to do subjects that are easily crammed. The way the system is set up, the number of points you get is everything.
 

Gombeen

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Mar 15, 2005
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Although I don't agree with Enda's recommendation to make Irish optional for the Leaving (and indeed the GP passed a motion at our recent Ard-Fheis rejecting that element of FG policy), he's being much more honest about the faults in the system than FF have ever been.
It's been clear that there were major faults in the teaching of Irish in national reports back to the 1970s and even further, yet FF have been happy to continue business as usual and lie about their commitment to Irish, rather than make some hard and radical changes. Mary Hanafin's recently mooted reforms are too little, too late.
 

MichaelR

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A language at gunpoint does not work. Period.

Compulsory education does not work too well in anything. In fact, my favourite part of Irish law is the family article of the Constitution which allowed to shoot down compulsory school attendance (High Court decision on a 1942 act).

I'd see ultimate abolition of compulsory education as a worthy long-term goal, but this has humanitarian consequences as non-compulsory education tends to become paid.

I dream of the day when I get good enough in Irish to speak at the Conradh na Gaeilge Ard Fheis about this. (Just give me a couple of years...)
 

Cael

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MichaelR said:
A language at gunpoint does not work. Period.

Compulsory education does not work too well in anything. In fact, my favourite part of Irish law is the family article of the Constitution which allowed to shoot down compulsory school attendance (High Court decision on a 1942 act).

I'd see ultimate abolition of compulsory education as a worthy long-term goal, but this has humanitarian consequences as non-compulsory education tends to become paid.

I dream of the day when I get good enough in Irish to speak at the Conradh na Gaeilge Ard Fheis about this. (Just give me a couple of years...)
There are many aspects of society which are compulsary - paying taxes, for example. I dont hear FG complaining about that. If you get rid of the points system then you can talk about ending compulsary Irish. While the points system exists, then dropping compulsary Irish actually reduces choice, as students are forced to choose subjects that are easily crammed. Everyone knows that the teaching of Irish in the schools is an absolute disgrace and has to be revolutionised straight away. FG's policy is all about failing to face the challenge and allowing students to drop out of a system which is failing. Anyone who cares about the Irish language should vote against FG's policy of defeat.
 
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I have to agree with Cael and it is an issue that Irish speaking people, and people that appreciate our own language largely dont seem to agree with.

The Irish Language is our National Language and therefore should be taught compulsory in schools. English is our joint first language, does FG think that it shouldnt be compulsory?

For centuries we have seen a decline in the Irish language, almost to extinction and we want to ensure that this never happens again. That is why Irish is compulsory in schools, and most people who have come out of school are glad to use their cupla focail, even as gesture. People were proud when Irish was recognised by the EU.

OK I will admit the syllibus is boring and maybe that should be revised. Maths is also boring, should that be revised? I dont see how it can but since some kids find it boring should it be just left as an option? I agree, lets set about rehashing the system in regards to teaching if Irish then, and I would commend any Minister for Education who will take steps to make Irish more interesting.

I dont think this would be a very popular measure by FG. By making Irish optional it means that considerably less students will do it in school. Children wont just pick Irish, they will opt out for easier subjects. My greatest fear is that this will be the first step on a slippery slope backwards to when Irish was not taught and unappreciated. Look at Wales, who have copied the Irish system of complusory Welsh and the success of this system. Before that, when it was optional very few students, if any, did it. Now the language has seen a rebirth and a new sense of national pride accompanies it.

When I was in Leaving Cert I felt that Irish was stupid and I didnt want to do it and given the choice I would have stopped. Now I am proud that I have a basic command of our language and can express to my foreign friends that English is not our language, we have another one too, our own seperate language because we are a seperate people with a seperate heritage and culture.

And finally, seriously, how hard is Pass Irish? anybody with half a years study could pass it, let alone 13 years. I say keep it compulsory, its hurting nobody, it holds nobody back, sure its an inconvience when your young, but most people feel proud when they are older that they learned it.
 

Cael

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Studies have shown that you can function in any language with only 400 words. The educational system cannot even teach most pupils 400 words in 13 years of daily Irish classes. this beggers belief. A root and branch change is needed. Dropping compulsary Irish is just a way to avoid making those changes.
 

MichaelR

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Gombeen said:
MichaelR said:
A language at gunpoint does not work. Period.
Seemd to work for English. Read Irish history?
Even with huge losses it took centuries.

I wouldn't have a problem with *immigrants* being pushed to do Irish if they intend to stay, i.e. by a language requirement for naturalization or long term residence. But we immigrants (I am one) aren't pushed. And *citizens* have a right to be free on their land, subject only to restrictions that are of really vital importance. This does not apply to much of the compulsory education system, more than just Irish.

Besides, compulsion naturally makes a freeman hate (I return the proposal to read Irish history). People hating maths in a high tech economy is even more dangerous than people hating Irish, so I'd suggest making maths optional in the Leaving Cert as well!
 
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We presently have in place a system whereby an immigrant does not have to study Irish if they were under a certain age before coming into our education system. this is only fair. And looking at the high tech boom in Ireland and the amount of people working in the IT sector, compulsory maths hasnt set us back at all. Actually I might go so far as to say its a benefit!
 

meriwether

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The Irish Language is our National Language and therefore should be taught compulsory in schools. English is our joint first language, does FG think that it shouldnt be compulsory?
It will be compulsory until the Junior cert.
Thats 11 years of compulsory Irish under FG.
Thats enough for me.
Then the kid decides if he wants to do it for another two, or if he doesn't.
I reckon by that, a kid has the brain power to decide whether he likes it or not.
And I fail to see the advantage of making him do it, if he doesn't want or like it.
 

MichaelR

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Cael said:
Studies have shown that you can function in any language with only 400 words. The educational system cannot even teach most pupils 400 words in 13 years of daily Irish classes. this beggers belief. A root and branch change is needed. Dropping compulsary Irish is just a way to avoid making those changes.
Any system that is monopolistic and compulsory will by its nature develop into something like that.

WHat I dont understand is why the PDs, apparently committed to breaking monopolies, did not lift a finger about this one?
 

Cael

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meriwether said:
The Irish Language is our National Language and therefore should be taught compulsory in schools. English is our joint first language, does FG think that it shouldnt be compulsory?
It will be compulsory until the Junior cert.
Thats 11 years of compulsory Irish under FG.
Thats enough for me.
Then the kid decides if he wants to do it for another two, or if he doesn't.
I reckon by that, a kid has the brain power to decide whether he likes it or not.
And I fail to see the advantage of making him do it, if he doesn't want or like it.
Can you address the point about the points system forcing students to choose subjects that are easily crammed?
 
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Should we make Irish optional and then Dumb it down so it as easy if not easier than other subjects (so people will choose it)? I see this as the beginning of a slippery slope.
 

The Collective.

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Apr 21, 2007
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My unstanding of the logic behind it is that, with less people struggling to do Irish that dont want to put any effort into, people who do want to learn Irish will have more time with the teacher. So basically the result will be, less Irish speakers but more quality speakers. Less quantity more quality.
 

Cael

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MichaelR said:
Cael said:
Studies have shown that you can function in any language with only 400 words. The educational system cannot even teach most pupils 400 words in 13 years of daily Irish classes. this beggers belief. A root and branch change is needed. Dropping compulsary Irish is just a way to avoid making those changes.
Any system that is monopolistic and compulsory will by its nature develop into something like that.

WHat I dont understand is why the PDs, apparently committed to breaking monopolies, did not lift a finger about this one?
There are a great many aspects of social life that are compulsary. Why do you just focus on Irish?
 

The Collective.

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Cael- You are being an idiot.
 
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