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Finland v Ireland population conundrum

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On a recent European flight I had the luck to sit beside 2 Finnish citizens both female on their way to a conference.
They both late 30's / early 40's (their call on age) and we compared growing up in Ireland v Finland.

One of the things the mentioned as while both grew up on edge of major city they now see a real difference in population.......... no babies.

Both indicated that while from different areas on a recent school reunion they casually counted the number of old school friends who had kids...................Out for 52 former classmates (mixed school) only 8 had kids, colleague said of 38 there were only 6. In total there were 20 kids...........................

Looking at Population statistics later this was clear.
Statistics Finland - Births 2015
CSO Quicktables: Number of Births, Deaths and Marriages

In total between 2006 and 2015 Ireland has 711,000 live births, Finland has 589,000 a 21% difference but Finland has a 17% greater population.

Asking was it child benefit related as in Ireland its circa €280, Finland €202 but they didn't think it was that.

One called it as society becoming selfish where it sees "Self" as being more important than society but they said whole life expectancy is 80 years they believed that by age 65 the number of births could be half current rate with a population curve following Japans.

Ireland's number of live births has dropped from its peak but is still higher than than the highest in Finland since 2006.

Question is will Ireland follow the Finnish and pretty much the Western model in population decline ? or are we somehow different.

Controversially one of the females said that given Sex education / contraception / abortion has been pretty freely available in Finland then perhaps that was the real reason. I must admit not commenting on it as they didn't agree among themselves with this.
 


GDPR

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On a recent European flight I had the luck to sit beside 2 Finnish citizens both female on their way to a conference.
They both late 30's / early 40's (their call on age) and we compared growing up in Ireland v Finland.

One of the things the mentioned as while both grew up on edge of major city they now see a real difference in population.......... no babies.

Both indicated that while from different areas on a recent school reunion they casually counted the number of old school friends who had kids...................Out for 52 former classmates (mixed school) only 8 had kids, colleague said of 38 there were only 6. In total there were 20 kids...........................

Looking at Population statistics later this was clear.
Statistics Finland - Births 2015
CSO Quicktables: Number of Births, Deaths and Marriages

In total between 2006 and 2015 Ireland has 711,000 live births, Finland has 589,000 a 21% difference but Finland has a 17% greater population.

Asking was it child benefit related as in Ireland its circa €280, Finland €202 but they didn't think it was that.

One called it as society becoming selfish where it sees "Self" as being more important than society but they said whole life expectancy is 80 years they believed that by age 65 the number of births could be half current rate with a population curve following Japans.

Ireland's number of live births has dropped from its peak but is still higher than than the highest in Finland since 2006.

Question is will Ireland follow the Finnish and pretty much the Western model in population decline ? or are we somehow different.

Controversially one of the females said that given Sex education / contraception / abortion has been pretty freely available in Finland then perhaps that was the real reason. I must admit not commenting on it as they didn't agree among themselves with this.
It's the way the me, me, me's head.
In the end we, the human race, will do yourselves in, acceptance of abortion is just the latest symptom of where we are heading and why.
 

Zapped(CAPITALISMROTS)

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There is already over 7 billion people on this planet !:shock:
 

ne0ica

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Sweden handled this by importing a population from the Middle East with high birth rates.
 

silverharp

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There is already over 7 billion people on this planet !:shock:
how does that affect low population Ireland or Finland? you could argue that somewhere like Britain or Japan could do with a natural cull but the logic doesnt apply to all richer countries
 
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stopdoingstuff

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Consumerism plus feminism plus contraception plus incentives minus religion minus community.
 

stopdoingstuff

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Societies with numbers like those are basically ready to be conquered by Muslims and Africans.
 

GDPR

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Perhaps this absurd notion, not to have kids until you can afford them, minus the 'state will look after me' mentality. Can you statistically produce some national evidence to back up this anecdotal tale on an airplane. Ireland seems consistently to have higher birth rates within the EU alright.
 

Kevin Parlon

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It's the Universalism stupid

Population is at once the most obvious and at the same time, the most weirdly 'eww' topics facing Europe. The demographic precipice we're barreling towards is now in plain view and yet, for reasons that exasperate me, (but which I now have concluded are a lot to do with western universalism) we simply will not talk seriously about addressing the fertility decline timebomb.

The universalist view tells us that populations, being groups of units of a universal whole can simply be shuffled around and that, a deficit here can be offset by moving some units from a surplus somewhere else. Germany's removal of the city gates is in part an experiment at addressing this problem by inviting in people who would normally fail to migrate using normal channels. (They're facing a e100,000,000,000 bill to educate the newcomers. I wonder how much it would have cost them to provide extra social spending to encourage families to have more children?)

It's the only explanation I've been able to come up with that explains the Euro elite's refusal to treat the coming irreversible decline with anything other than a dry, academic yawn.
 

ne0ica

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Societies with numbers like those are basically ready to be conquered by Muslims and Africans.
You'd would think a country which got conquered by its neighbors Sweden and Russia would learn.

We should learn from this.
 

Kevin Parlon

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It's the way the me, me, me's head.
In the end we, the human race, will do yourselves in, acceptance of abortion is just the latest symptom of where we are heading and why.
Humans have exercised control over fertility for as long as they have been able to do so. Abortion isn't what's likely to pose an existential threat. Overpopulation might be though. It has a lot to do with how western economies work, and is, in my view, their most critical fault in the western welfare state. They force family sizes down below replacement rates amongst the productive and force family sizes up amongst the non-productive.
 

Kevin Parlon

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There is already over 7 billion people on this planet !:shock:
Well spotted. The solution for this isn't for the Japanese, Korean, Russian and 'Western' peoples to manage their own decline, but for stability in all population groups. That's not what's happening. And such seismic changes guarantee chaos, suffering and conflict down the line.
 

GDPR

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Let's see, my brother in law who lives in Helsinki has 4 kids. His eldest who is in his early twenties, has one child.
 

silverharp

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there is also the selfishness of the welfare state, "YOU" dont have to have kids because your neighbour's kids will look after you in your old age. If a lot of people are playing the game then its good night Irene.
the Nationalist's solution is to give parents low interest loans 50K-100K and each kid pays off a qtr of the principle. I'd be more inclined to slash taxes and services so that men keep more of their incomes and cull all the silly state jobs women vote for and get. in a single swoop you kill excess consumerism, and marriage marriage and kids more affordable.
 

dbreen

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there is also the selfishness of the welfare state, "YOU" dont have to have kids because your neighbour's kids will look after you in your old age. If a lot of people are playing the game then its good night Irene.
the Nationalist's solution is to give parents low interest loans 50K-100K and each kid pays off a qtr of the principle. I'd be more inclined to slash taxes and services so that men keep more of their incomes and cull all the silly state jobs women vote for and get. in a single swoop you kill excess consumerism, and marriage marriage and kids more affordable.
Hungary has brought in a scheme where the state grants a non-repayable aid package of 10 million Hungarian Forints (HUF) to all couples agreeing to have three children within ten years.

According to the Global Property Guide, the average detached house price in Hungary is HUF 9.3 million.

Minister Lázár said that the grant was part of the extension of the government’s “family first home benefit.”

Hungary to Pay Citizens for Children -
 

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