Fintan O'Toole is spot on re: bailout and political reform.

Mugabe

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Bailout worth nought without political reform - The Irish Times - Tue, Nov 16, 2010

"There is no point in us being bailed out if the only effect is to keep in place the systems and political culture that created the mess. The EU could wipe all our debts right now and we’d end up in another crisis in 10 years. To put it brutally, we are incapable of governing ourselves with our current institutions and attitudes."

Fintan is spot on - anything that allows the current CULTURE that exists in this country to continue is worrying.

We need to change the entire running and set-up of this country.
 


goosebump

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Bailout worth nought without political reform - The Irish Times - Tue, Nov 16, 2010

"There is no point in us being bailed out if the only effect is to keep in place the systems and political culture that created the mess. The EU could wipe all our debts right now and we’d end up in another crisis in 10 years. To put it brutally, we are incapable of governing ourselves with our current institutions and attitudes."

Fintan is spot on - anything that allows the current CULTURE that exists in this country to continue is worrying.

We need to change the entire running and set-up of this country.
Fine. Stand for the Dail. That's how it works.
 

Mugabe

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His point is that "it" doesn't bloody work.
10 out of 10 for observation :)

The first two responses have shown exactly what the issue is. same old same old.

We need a complete change in culture, not a change in TD's FFS.

The system is broken and putting different people in to that system alone will not change it.

The people need to express a will to change the system in every way, even in a constitutional way.
 

oddsox

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His point is that "it" doesn't bloody work.
No his point is that ff don't work, however he does not want to acknowledge that and wants to paint everyone with the same brush.
 

goosebump

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That is precisely how it DOESN'T work - or have you not comprehended that yet?
No, it doesn't work in the way that you want it to work. There is a difference.
 

Skrynesaver

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Sadly under the current institutions standing for the Dáil successfully involves getting people benefits they are not entitled to, getting potholes fixed and generally becoming a jumped up county councillor rather than a national politician.
 

goosebump

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The people need to express a will to change the system in every way, even in a constitutional way.

Get elected to the Dail. Put don't a Constitutional Amendment Bill, have it passed. All changed. Simple.

How do you think change should happen exactly?
 

goosebump

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Sadly under the current institutions standing for the Dáil successfully involves getting people benefits they are not entitled to, getting potholes fixed and generally becoming a jumped up county councillor rather than a national politician.
That's the perogative of the electorate. Take it up with them.

There is nothing in Statute or the Constitution that prevents clever d!cks like Fintan O'Toole standing for the Dail.

Might be more constructive than constantly opining that the people are idiots and need to be protected from themselves.
 

SlabMurphy

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Fine. Stand for the Dail. That's how it works.
It's a message board -" an online discussion site where people can hold conversations in the form of posted messages. " Mugabe is only expressing an honest view, doesn't mean he or anyone else on Politics.ie have to stand for election.

Simples.
 

goosebump

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It's a message board -" an online discussion site where people can hold conversations in the form of posted messages. " Mugabe is only expressing an honest view, doesn't mean he or anyone else on Politics.ie have to stand for election.

Simples.
Why doesn't Mugabe tell us by what mechanism his preferred changes should be implemented, if not according to our constitutionally defined system of parliamentary democracy?
 

Mugabe

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Get elected to the Dail. Put don't a Constitutional Amendment Bill, have it passed. All changed. Simple.

How do you think change should happen exactly?
That's simple in theory.

But the people want a general election, (and they do), but can we get one based on will alone? No, because the system, used by the government to their benefit wont allow it.

It took a court to enforce a by-election.

Our PM doesn't have executive power to force judges to take a pay cut.

The banks have lied to the government and the government have in turn lied to us.

This is a root and branch issue within the country as a whole and this culture has always existed - the thread and the article is stating that this will all need to change or we will be back at square one.

He is spot on as the thread sais.

EDITING THIS: :)


I'M EDITING THIS:

Culture changes with everyone. A but like the French, perhaps the people need to say more regularly that we are not taking this crap no more. In a constructive way.
 

TradCat

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No his point is that ff don't work, however he does not want to acknowledge that and wants to paint everyone with the same brush.
Not voting for the others is now unforgivable. So they will have a chance to put it right. But if they funk political reform then before long they will become like FF or FF will be back. They will have a chance to change the system with huge public support.

I hope they don't blow it.
 

loaf

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Why doesn't Mugabe tell us by what mechanism his preferred changes should be implemented, if not according to our constitutionally defined system of parliamentary democracy?
It's perfectly acceptable to assert that 'parliamentary democracy' is part of the problem, not some neutral process through which all problems can be solved.

But to suggest that anyone holding this view should have a nice sound bitey 'alternative' system is unrealistic. The complex interplay of history, culture and power has led to such a system - it's unlikely that a ready-formed alternative could be proposed in a few neat sentences.
 

goatstoe

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That's the perogative of the electorate. Take it up with them.

There is nothing in Statute or the Constitution that prevents clever d!cks like Fintan O'Toole standing for the Dail.

Might be more constructive than constantly opining that the people are idiots and need to be protected from themselves.
But they are idiots. They voted in Ahern for a 3rd time when all and sundry knew he was personally corrupt. Ahern's policies of handing out goodies to everyone instead of spending the money wisely sated the short sighted selfish interests of most of the electorate. One can only hope when this crisis is over - and it seems to be entering the start of endgame now - that enough of the electorate will learn that a degree of sophistication needs to be applied when considering who to vote for. In turn the politicians will up their game - because they only ever react to what they think people want - and provide a new and intelligent narrative in Irish politics for people to consider voting for.
 

SlabMurphy

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10 out of 10 for observation :)

The first two responses have shown exactly what the issue is. same old same old.

We need a complete change in culture, not a change in TD's FFS.

The system is broken and putting different people in to that system alone will not change it.

The people need to express a will to change the system in every way, even in a constitutional way.
Agreed. Not trying to hijack the thread but here is an by Constantin Gurdgiev
which I think contains many good ideas for how this state should be governed in future and as far as I'm concerned they should have be bound into the constitution in some way so that future FF govts cannot change the laws by stealth like they did with the Public Information and Ombudsman, tax breaks for their superwealthy friends etc -

* Benchmark Government spending to 35% of GDP, with emergency spending not to exceed 37% of GDP in any given year, and a balanced budget over every 3 year period. This allows for small emergency spending boosts in recessions, but prevents spending sprees in elections etc

* No future bailouts constitutional amendment to be put to a referendum to prevent a possibility of any future calls on taxpayers wealth from any private sector firm

* Wages for politicians and all senior servants earnings are to be tied to the National Disposable Income (NDI) on per capita basis (pcNDI): Taoiseach=3.5 times pcNDI; Ministers=3 times pcNDI; senior civil servants=max 2.7 times pcNDI; TDs/Senators=2.5 times pcNDI and so on.

*All banks boards and senior management teams replaced within 3 months. All banks middle management teams reassessed and rebuilt within 12 months.

Here's the rest of it True Economics: Economics 27/8/10: Manifesto I (?)
 

fonzie

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Looking at the body language of our elected officials at the moment - both in and out of government, they all know that the system is bust. All the Fianna Fail ministers interviewed over the past 72 hours have looked like broken men.

It is definitely the right time for a constitutional reform party to emerge. There is enough behind the scenes murmurings to give indication that such a thing is happening.
 


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