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Fluoridation Debate Dail 27/02/2013 with Shane Ross


Telemachus

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[video=youtube;qMem0bMkETQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMem0bMkETQ&feature=youtu.be&a[/video]

Worth watching. Shane Ross comes across well.

Note at 7:50 the Labour defender of water flouridation let slip that water flouridation at current levels actually damages teeth.

This will have to go to court to get it removed from the water supply.

A woman in kerry is taking a case this year, I hope a TD joins the case, in case the judge tells the lady she doesnt have "standing":?.
 


Kitty O'Shea

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thanks for that, will watch it tomorrow
 

EUrJokingMeRight

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[video=youtube;qMem0bMkETQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMem0bMkETQ&feature=youtu.be&a[/video]

Worth watching. Shane Ross comes across well.

Note at 7:50 the Labour defender of water flouridation let slip that water flouridation at current levels actually damages teeth.

This will have to go to court to get it removed from the water supply.

A woman in kerry is taking a case this year, I hope a TD joins the case, in case the judge tells the lady she doesnt have "standing":?.
Indeed. A classy 'Republic' alright. You have the right to pay tax/drink the fluoride but not to legally challenge the tax/the fluoridation.
 

chef35

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Odd that they never gave the figures for flouridosis which in children in the US have been noted to be as high as 20%, considering childhood obesity is 17%, and there is such concern about this, I think this deserves equal consideration. Also, (just an odd fact), a study in china in the 90's highlighted the relation between domestic and industrial burning of coal and higher enviornmental flouride, in foodstuffs etc (will link if necessary). So it would seem that the when calculating the mean consumption of flouride in this country, a few more factors have to be taken into consideration.
 

Telemachus

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IbrahaimMohamad

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Odd that they never gave the figures for flouridosis which in children in the US have been noted to be as high as 20%, considering childhood obesity is 17%, and there is such concern about this, I think this deserves equal consideration. Also, (just an odd fact), a study in china in the 90's highlighted the relation between domestic and industrial burning of coal and higher enviornmental flouride, in foodstuffs etc (will link if necessary). So it would seem that the when calculating the mean consumption of flouride in this country, a few more factors have to be taken into consideration.
Should the State compensate people who got flouridosis from drinking water?
 

chef35

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Should the State compensate people who got flouridosis from drinking water?
It may be necessary to bring some test cases to 'encourage', it's discontinuation, but with regard to compensation, flourosis was always a known side-effect of flouridation, so imo, no.

Interestingly, an irish study of flourosis in 8 year olds across europe found it's prevalence in Cork to be as high as 61%.

A comparison of the prevalence of fluorosis in 8-year-old children from seven European study sites using a standardized methodology | Irish Child Health Database | Department of Health and Children
 

Orbit v2

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A woman in kerry is taking a case this year, I hope a TD joins the case, in case the judge tells the lady she doesnt have "standing":?.
There won't be any problem with "standing", because every citizen is affected by fluoridation. More to the point though, I hope she has money to pay her legal advisors and maybe whoever she's suing.
 

Iarmuid

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This is the report by Declan Waugh on the impact of adding fluorosilicic acid to the water supply referenced in the hotpress article and by Shane Ross,

http://www.enviro.ie/Human Toxicity, Environmental Impact and Legal Implications of Water Fluoridation_February 2012_EnviroManagement Services.pdf
It is a simple matter really. It is morally repugnant to force medicate people. Twist and spin but this will not go away. As it happens it is also the official reason given in many European countries as to why flouridation of the water supply is not practised.
 

IbrahaimMohamad

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It may be necessary to bring some test cases to 'encourage', it's discontinuation, but with regard to compensation, flourosis was always a known side-effect of flouridation, so imo, no.

Interestingly, an irish study of flourosis in 8 year olds across europe found it's prevalence in Cork to be as high as 61%.

A comparison of the prevalence of fluorosis in 8-year-old children from seven European study sites using a standardized methodology | Irish Child Health Database | Department of Health and Children
Surely Flourosis is more likely when EPA flouride limits are being exceeded?
 

Orbit v2

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It is a simple matter really. It is morally repugnant to force medicate people. Twist and spin but this will not go away. As it happens it is also the official reason given in many European countries as to why flouridation of the water supply is not practised.
It's not so simple though. Fluoride occurs naturally in water in some places. Does that mean people have a right to have that "medication" removed from their water supply? Someone better tell those European countries if so.

Here's the ethical argument from the other side
 

kerdasi amaq

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I'd say that the government will come to the conclusion that ensuring the suppliers of fluoride have a market for their poison is far more important than the health of the Irish People.
 

Iarmuid

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It's not so simple though. Fluoride occurs naturally in water in some places. Does that mean people have a right to have that "medication" removed from their water supply? Someone better tell those European countries if so.

Here's the ethical argument from the other side
If you think drinking naturally occuring flouride in water amounts to forced medication it is clear you do not understand the meaning of the term. Apologies for being so blunt.


Silicofluorides, widely used in water fluoridation, are unlicensed medicinal substances, administered to large populations Without informed consent or supervision by a qualified medical practitioner. Fluoridation fails the test of reliability and specificity...
 
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wickalah

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There is no credible scientific argument against fluoridation on health grounds. Most, if not all, of the nonsense peddled by the anti-fluoridation crackpots is cherrypicking or misinterpretation of existing scientific data.

There is, however, a credible argument against fluoridation on the grounds that the state should not be medicating the water for *any* reason (completely safe or not), as it removes the ability for citizens to opt out of it.

Me, I think fluoridation has been proven to work, and is still working to improve dental health. I have no problem with it.

I have never had much respect for Shane Ross, I think he has always been a bit of a spoofer, but this is ridiculous.
 

wickalah

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Odd that they never gave the figures for flouridosis which in children in the US have been noted to be as high as 20%, considering childhood obesity is 17%, and there is such concern about this, I think this deserves equal consideration.
It doesn't deserve equal consideration.
Obesity is linked with heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes and cancer.
Fluorosis is linked with (sometimes) having slightly discoloured teeth.
 

cashinhand

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Fluoride may have an effect when topically applied (i.e. when it hits the teeth); not when swallowed.

One cannot control dose (a thirsty sportsplayer will ingest a lot of fluoride from the tap and also in her food cooked in tap water).

The substance put into Irish drinking waters is an unlicensed medicine, and thus the supplier and the Irish authorities are breaking European law.

The practice of adding it to drinking water supplies has been discontinued in many European countries, and for good reason.

It is costing approximately 4 million euros per year according to a relatively recently Dáil reply.

Its ingestion in uncontrolled doses may be causing health problems, and thus the precautionary principle applies.
 

Orbit v2

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If you think naturally occuring flouride in water amounts to forced medication it is clear you do not understand the meaning of the term. Apologies for being so blunt.
So, if it's already in the water, that's ok, but if we add it artificially, then that constitutes medication? What matters to my mind is the actual pharmacological effect. There are plenty of places in the world where the natural levels are very high and have to be reduced, and other places were it is beneficial to increase the natural levels. So, sorry I'm just not buying this "medication" argument.
cashinhand said:
Fluoride may have an effect when topically applied (i.e. when it hits the teeth); not when swallowed.
yes, the benefit is topical, but with fluoride in your saliva, that means your teeth are permanently bathed in it.
 

Telemachus

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It doesn't deserve equal consideration.
Obesity is linked with heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes and cancer.
Fluorosis is linked with (sometimes) having slightly discoloured teeth.
Also causes your teeth to chip more easily - chips leads of course to further erosion and possible infection or the inner tooth - if the chips arent filled.

I'm after spending about 200 quid in the last year filling minor chips. I should really send the bill to the HSE.

For the last few years I have made sure also I use a non-fluoride based toothpaste.
 

chef35

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It doesn't deserve equal consideration.
Obesity is linked with heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes and cancer.
Fluorosis is linked with (sometimes) having slightly discoloured teeth.
I can see that due to it's rather benign presentation, it looks pretty harmless, however no follow up studies were done to determine it's effect on bone formation etc, in these individuals. Dental Fluorosis usually occurs before the age of eight when teeth are forming, usually the damage is done before the child is 3.

http://www.fluorideresearch.org/381/files/38144-47.pdf

This is an old study but it shows how in an area with low fluoride in the water, other sources come into play, in this case it is a type of tea known to be high in fluoride, (most teas are), when calculating whether or not to fluoridate water, one has to take into consideration the amount of fluoride being ingested on a daily basis from other sources. In the study they also did skelectical surveys and realised that fluorosis was present in the bones of these children which could not be picked up by just a physical exam. If your interested in the neurological and other physiological effects the OPer has posted a really in-dept report.
 

max99

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Watch it and weep! We are the only country in Europe importing this chemical at a huge cost to the State, and they now admit, that far from being good for our teeth... the fluoride only causes minor tooth decay. Will Paddy Irishman ever learn??
 

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