Foreign Nationals receiving Social Welfare Benefits

Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Messages
66
Is it near time with the state the country is in to basically inform the near 20% of the Live Register who are Foreign Nationals that we as a country cannot afford to hand out any more money to them once their stamps have run out and they should go to their Countries Embassy for assistance
 


edmundburke

Active member
Joined
Jun 14, 2010
Messages
120
This seems quite reasonable to me: there is simply no employment available in the country at present. But wouldn't such a move run into serious difficulties vis the EU and other international committments? Does anyone know the legal implications of such a move?
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Messages
66
Sigh. We've been through this a thousand times. You're going to be branded a racist by some absolute plank who can't get outraged quick enough by your concern for our open door immigration policy, others voice their concern and the whole mess continues ad nauseam.

I'm all too aware of the madness of the generous welfare policy to non-EU citizens but do yourself a favour buddy and just try swallow it - our country is effed and the fools in place have had 15 years to get some sort of competent policy in place. If it hasn't happened yet it never will. Not even now with a third of our prison population from foreign lands. They still won't get the idea.

It's the inequity that most Irish citizens have trouble with - you and your parents generation work hard all your lives and contribute towards the upkeep of the State just to have welfare parasites arrive from the bowels of Africa and Asia asking where's their cut. Asylum seeking aside (Jesus we really paid for that didn't we!) if they have nothing to contribute towards society they shouldn't be here.

Alas it is all too late. The horse has bolted and Ireland will have to deal with the mess.
I believe its more the EU Citizens that is receiving the most benefits not Non Eu Citizens
 

Scipio

Well-known member
Joined
May 3, 2010
Messages
936
Is it near time with the state the country is in to basically inform the near 20% of the Live Register who are Foreign Nationals that we as a country cannot afford to hand out any more money to them once their stamps have run out and they should go to their Countries Embassy for assistance
Absolutely not. If the country didn't want them, it shouldn't have let them in.
The vast majority of "foreign" workers who are here have paid their taxes, played by the rules and thus are entitled to benefits just like any Irish worker.

If you don't like "foreigners", tough, they've just as much right to benefits as the "natives" do. How ironic that people like you would probably be the first ones to lambast the government for saddling the most vulnerable members of society with the cost of mistakes made much higher up.
 

b.a. baracus

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
2,203
Absolutely not. If the country didn't want them, it shouldn't have let them in.
The vast majority of "foreign" workers who are here have paid their taxes, played by the rule and thus are entitled to benefits just like any Irish worker.

If you don't like "foreigners" tough, they've just as much right to benefits as the "natives" do. How ironic that people like you would probably be the first ones to lambast the government for saddling the most vulnerable members of society with the cost of mistakes made much higher up.
In fairness the OP is not advocating the stopping of unemployment benefit which is based on PRSI contributions. However should unemployment "assistance" which is a means-tested support payment continue to be paid ad-infinitum to those who have immigrated here from abroad?

On another point many immigrants have paid little or no tax. The bottom 50% of income earners in the state are outside the tax net. This equally applies to many irish people aswell of course but immigrants are probably more likely to be low paid and thus have made no income tax contribution for the benefits they are now receiving.

If they are EU nationals then presumably we must pay whatever benefits an Irish person is entitled to. They are the rules we have signed up to in the EU and there is little point complaining.

The asylum seeker brigade are a whole other ball game.
 

louis bernard

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Messages
2,698
There is nothing we can do about EU citizens living here. They are here legally and are entitled to be here. On the other hand non-eu citizens that are here illegally, asylum seekers ET AL should be rounded up ASAP and deported. Also there should be a detention barracks at Dublin Airport where all so called asylum seekers and illegal entrants should be held until they can be put back on the next flight to where they just came from. All trains from Northern Ireland should be stopped in Dundalk and checked for illegals. None of these actions are beyond our capabilities.
 

charley

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 3, 2009
Messages
1,247
In fairness the OP is not advocating the stopping of unemployment benefit which is based on PRSI contributions. However should unemployment "assistance" which is a non means-tested support payment continue to be paid ad-infinitum to those who have immigrated here from abroad?

On another point many immigrants have paid little or no tax. The bottom 50% of income earners in the state are outside the tax net. This equally applies to many irish people aswell of course but immigrants are probably more likely to be low paid and thus have made no income tax contribution for the benefits they are now receiving.

If they are EU nationals then presumably we must pay whatever benefits an Irish person is entitled to. They are the rules we have signed up to in the EU and there is little point complaining.

The asylum seeker brigade are a whole other ball game.
If they have paid they have paid their PRSI that is enough. Its not their fault that the wages paid were below a taxable level but this would only apply if they earned below €15500 a year. Which is less than minimum wage and therefore be illegal. The 50% figure that posters are so fond of bandying about applies to part-time workers. Everyone working 39 hour week on minimum wage is paying tax
 

Future

Active member
Joined
Sep 25, 2010
Messages
218
If someone has worked here for a whatever time is required to get benefits then they are entitled to them. However, any foreigner who has never contributed anything to our society shouldn't get a penny of us.
 

FreshStart

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
704
Absolutely not. If the country didn't want them, it shouldn't have let them in.
The vast majority of "foreign" workers who are here have paid their taxes, played by the rules and thus are entitled to benefits just like any Irish worker.

If you don't like "foreigners", tough, they've just as much right to benefits as the "natives" do. How ironic that people like you would probably be the first ones to lambast the government for saddling the most vulnerable members of society with the cost of mistakes made much higher up.
I don't agree that 'foreigners' are the most vulnerable. I think the newly unemployed worker (usually a male with a mortgage, a few children and a wife on low wage, or part-time) are exceptionally vulnerable. Are you aware that unless negative equity occurs on a home, the value of that property is counted as means. Are you aware that low wage earnings (which in these cases are being used to desperately service mortgage debt) are being used to reduce welfare payments. I'm sorry but the welfare system wasn't set up to cope with the new Irish unemployed, it's still very poor law in its approach and with O'Ciuv there, we're doomed.

I'm sure we can come up with other examples, the self-employed trader whose business has gone bust etc. Unfortunately, our government are hellbent on cutting and so unfairness and a workhouse welfare system will remain in place.
 

asknoquestions

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Messages
2,951
If someone has worked here for a whatever time is required to get benefits then they are entitled to them. However, any foreigner who has never contributed anything to our society shouldn't get a penny of us.
Actually, EU citizens on Jobseeker's Benefit (or its equivalent out foreign) are entitled to move to another EU country and to get the same amount of benefit there for up to 3 months. Terms and conditions apply.

You need a u2 form:
Frequently Asked Questions - EU
 

BodyPolathick

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2010
Messages
618
Actually, EU citizens on Jobseeker's Benefit (or its equivalent out foreign) are entitled to move to another EU country and to get the same amount of benefit there for up to 3 months. Terms and conditions apply.

You need a u2 form:
Frequently Asked Questions - EU

My understanding is that the first three months are paid by the country of origin and then the recipient receives the benefits of the host country. E.g. paddy signs on in Germany, Ireland pay the Germany system for three months and then Germany pays paddy the dole.

Also how does the social welfare system check for means in another country? several thread on this site refer to money being spent aboard to pay for mortgages and investment property in Poland etc, that is a asset and subsequent deductions should be made how is this checked. I have no problem with individuals receiving their entitlements but I don't want to be paying monies fraudulently either that future generations will have to pay back with interest.
 

b.a. baracus

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
2,203
If they have paid they have paid their PRSI that is enough. Its not their fault that the wages paid were below a taxable level but this would only apply if they earned below €15500 a year. Which is less than minimum wage and therefore be illegal. The 50% figure that posters are so fond of bandying about applies to part-time workers. Everyone working 39 hour week on minimum wage is paying tax
I have no objection to them receiving unemployment benefit. They paid their PRSI - they are entitled to it just as any Irish person is.

I was simply trying to point out that the old "they paid their taxes" line is always trotted out when in fact many of them (and many Irish people) actually have made little or no income tax contribution.

I dispute your figures also. Are you getting confused with the income levy which was only introduced recently? Prior to that people on approaching 20k paid no income tax.
 

milesian

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
108
There is nothing we can do about EU citizens living here. They are here legally and are entitled to be here. On the other hand non-eu citizens that are here illegally, asylum seekers ET AL should be rounded up ASAP and deported. Also there should be a detention barracks at Dublin Airport where all so called asylum seekers and illegal entrants should be held until they can be put back on the next flight to where they just came from. All trains from Northern Ireland should be stopped in Dundalk and checked for illegals. None of these actions are beyond our capabilities.

Irrespective of the motivation of this 'rounding up', I don't even imagine that the state apparatus in this Republic is capable of doing such.

Simple reality normally informs, clearly it's a two bit country with a myopic and nasty conservatism at play.
 

asset test

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 3, 2008
Messages
14,593
I have no objection to them receiving unemployment benefit. They paid their PRSI - they are entitled to it just as any Irish person is.

I was simply trying to point out that the old "they paid their taxes" line is always trotted out when in fact many of them (and many Irish people) actually have made little or no income tax contribution.

I dispute your figures also. Are you getting confused with the income levy which was only introduced recently? Prior to that people on approaching 20k paid no income tax.
20k a year = roughly 200 quid a week. Now fair enough if you are working part time for that, but anyone who would work full time for that salary, when the dole is probably higher with all its additional benefits would be daft!

How about taxing the dole? If you have been signing on during the CT years, put a levy on those recipients. Unfortunate reluctant newbies, and those who have contributed to the dole to be exempt.

Anyway back to topic. How easy is it for a non EU national to get the dole in other EU countries I wonder? Just asking, don't know, but I'd say our caring society looks after them through Community Welfare quite well. I don't want to see anyone starving or homeless, but really, a lot of this caper is welfare tourism.

EU citizens, fine. We get reciprocal arrangements. I wonder how easy it would be for me to get dole in Singapore for example, or Lagos, :rolleyes:
 

Cato

Moderator
Joined
Aug 21, 2005
Messages
20,400
On another point many immigrants have paid little or no tax.
There are taxes other than income tax that are very difficult to avoid paying, such as VAT.
 

bkeith

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Messages
1,541
It's simple really: register for social welfare benefits.
And if you decide to leave the country, don't worry about it because the Irish State will continue to pay your benefits into your bank account, and you can access your welfare payments from abroad via ATM machines.
'Tis a great little country. Sur, who's paying for it ..... only the tax payer.

From the Irish Times:

A major cross-Border investigation between Irish and British authorities has uncovered widespread social welfare fraud by asylum seekers and other foreign nationals may have cost the State tens of millions of euro, The Irish Times has learned. Conor Lally reports.

Sources close to the investigation, called Operation Gull, said they have been "staggered" by the level and nature of abuses being detected.

Co-ordinated swoops on ports and airports in the Republic and Northern Ireland have revealed significant numbers of foreign nationals taking advantage of the common travel area between the Republic and the UK in a bid to defraud the Irish Exchequer.

When interviewed while entering the State from the UK, many were found to have already registered for social welfare benefits of up to €3,000 per month in the Republic.

They had left the country but had continued to be paid benefits into bank accounts. They were able to access their welfare payments from abroad via ATM machines. The authorities were unaware the fraudsters had left the State and so the payments were never stopped.

Some offenders were found to be registered for benefits in the UK and other EU states under assumed identities. One Nigerian couple registered for benefits here were found to be running a four-star hotel in Lagos, where they were spending long periods.

In another case a foreign national woman living in Co Meath was claiming rent allowance and child-related benefits totalling almost €3,000 per month combined despite her husband working as a fully-qualified doctor in a Belfast hospital.
 

b.a. baracus

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
2,203
20k a year = roughly 200 quid a week. Now fair enough if you are working part time for that, but anyone who would work full time for that salary, when the dole is probably higher with all its additional benefits would be daft!

How about taxing the dole? If you have been signing on during the CT years, put a levy on those recipients. Unfortunate reluctant newbies, and those who have contributed to the dole to be exempt.

Anyway back to topic. How easy is it for a non EU national to get the dole in other EU countries I wonder? Just asking, don't know, but I'd say our caring society looks after them through Community Welfare quite well. I don't want to see anyone starving or homeless, but really, a lot of this caper is welfare tourism.

EU citizens, fine. We get reciprocal arrangements. I wonder how easy it would be for me to get dole in Singapore for example, or Lagos, :rolleyes:
You're nearly as bad as me at maths!
20k a year is about €400 a week ;)
 

asset test

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 3, 2008
Messages
14,593
You're nearly as bad as me at maths!
20k a year is about €400 a week ;)
Jeez you're right! Must have been the late night last night!! :eek:

Anyway, would it be worth it to work if you got 200 on the dole, + rent allce, medical card etc, taking into account the expenses of working for that salary, travel, lunches, contributing to every wedding, engagement, birthday of your colleagues, not to mention the feckin Christmas party!
 

oddsox

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
Messages
802
This seems quite reasonable to me: there is simply no employment available in the country at present. But wouldn't such a move run into serious difficulties vis the EU and other international committments? Does anyone know the legal implications of such a move?
The EU didn't bother Sarcosay.
Its also terrible that self employed are left hanging on without, are these the 40k gov expect to leave Ireland inc
 


New Threads

Most Replies

Top