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Forget The Seanad, What About The E.U?


R3volution_R3ady

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Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
2,368
There's far too much talk about the Seanad abolition that you'd be forgiven in thinking it actually meant something.

It doesn't.

If people were truly concerned about where this country is headed and the politicians that are bringing us in this direction, how about we first actually deal with the ones we don't elect? The Seanad fiasco is a distraction and it's working perfectly. The thought of having a national debate on our role in the European Union is absolutely off the table. Nobody is talking about it. Nobody wants to talk about it. All of our parties are pro-EU and there are no alternative voices to be heard and that's just the way the Establishment likes it.

The European Union is not a recipe for prosperity. It is not a recipe for jobs. The most transparent and accountable government is local government. The EU Commission on the other hand, lead by unelected, undemocratic Commissioners and run by an appointed bureaucracy is an affront to an accountable and transparent society. Even the Council is secretive and meet behind closed doors away from the people. All it does is demonstrate contempt for democracy and a reluctance to engage with voters. It relies on centralism, remoteness and wreaks havoc on the economies of it's members.

75% of our laws are dictated from another country. Just what have we got ourselves into here? Those that dictate these laws are not voted in by us and we cannot remove them. Dail Eireann does not have a say in these laws and it cannot repeal them. The EU dictates policy in farming, finance, fishing, immigration, trade, employment, energy, business and law. It's now trying to control foreign affairs and tax (and once that happens, let us be under no illusions here - Ireland is F.I.N.I.S.H.E.D!).

This has little to do with trade and everything to do with protectionism. Where is the growth?! It's nowhere to be found. We're at a snails pace. We've reached an absolute standstill. Isn't it bizarre that a country like the United Kingdom trade more with Ireland, a region of just five million than it does with Brazil, China, India and Russia? Ireland needs to open it's economy up to the world, not just the EU. Well then we hear that if we challenge the EU's role in our lives that jobs will be lost, that businesses will just up-and-leave. Nothing could be further from the truth. The only people that benefit from the EU are the big corporations. Those multi-billionaire companies that have the resources to deal with the regulatory frenzy. What about the little guys? The ladder has been well and truly pulled up. So, is the EU great for multi-billion Euro corporations - YES! Is the EU great for everyone else? NO!

It's time we started treating this Seanad debate for the farce it truly is and start focusing on the elephant in the room here. Whether or not the Senate is abolished is absolutely irrelevant and I don't want people being mislead in thinking it does or that it's some kind of step forward here with regards to reform. It is nothing more than rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.


<Mod> This thread has been merged with "Seanad abolition to make way for more EU centralized government?" </Mod>
 
Last edited by a moderator:


Marcos the black

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Feb 3, 2009
Messages
18,708
While I do not agree with the sentiment, you are correct.. 75 to 80% of our laws come in the form of EU Directives.. Which is why the Seanad is totally unnecessary..

We decide what pot holes to fix..
 

Bonsai Experiment

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Jun 17, 2010
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14,042
It's time we started treating this Seanad debate for the farce it truly is and start focusing on the elephant in the room here. Whether or not the Senate is abolished is absolutely irrelevant and I don't want people being mislead in thinking it does or that it's some kind of step forward here with regards to reform. It is nothing more than rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
I dont see why you had to make your thread about the Seanad , it's really about the EU and the Seanad has little to do with the thrust of what you are saying about Ireland in the EU. I think keeping the Seanad is an important step in maintaining our own sovereignty, to keep in place the system of balances and checks we need for good local governance. I know it doesnt work that way NOW, but thats the whole point of Reform , if we abolish it we'll never get the chance to reform it and with it gone, we'll have less chance to reform the Dail and thats exactly what the EU wants status quo in Irish centre right politics across the board. So abolishing the Seanad is counterproductive to your position on the EU. I agree with you on the EU, its a disaster for us.
I made the point that I intend to boycott the Euro elections on another thread as it is a useless puppet theatre that undermines our sovereignty and I got jumped on by a bunch of Womble Youth in anoraks.
 

R3volution_R3ady

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I dont see why you had to make your thread about the Seanad , it's really about the EU and the Seanad has little to do with the thrust of what you are saying about Ireland in the EU. I think keeping the Seanad is an important step in maintaining our own sovereignty, to keep in place the system of balances and checks we need for good local governance. I know it doesnt work that way NOW, but thats the whole point of Reform , if we abolish it we'll never get the chance to reform it and with it gone, we'll have less chance to reform the Dail and thats exactly what the EU wants status quo in Irish centre right politics across the board. So abolishing the Seanad is counterproductive to your position on the EU. I agree with you on the EU, its a disaster for us.
I made the point that I intend to boycott the Euro elections on another thread as it is a useless puppet theatre that undermines our sovereignty and I got jumped on by a bunch of Womble Youth in anoraks.
Because there's too much emphasis on the Seanad and not enough on the European Union.
 

sic transit

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Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Messages
25,524
Because there's too much emphasis on the Seanad and not enough on the European Union.
So why didn't you start this thread in the EU forum? The Seanad is only a sideshow to your real issue and one might conclude you are exploiting current interest in the Seanad to get people to click on the link to this one.
 

R3volution_R3ady

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Messages
2,368
So why didn't you start this thread in the EU forum? The Seanad is only a sideshow to your real issue and one might conclude you are exploiting current interest in the Seanad to get people to click on the link to this one.
How is the Seanad a side-show when it is being promoted and sold as this great jump forward in reform when in reality, it's meaningless?
 

Socratus O' Pericles

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Oct 12, 2009
Messages
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I have been treating the Seanad abolition debate like the farce it is-- a Kenny brainfart.

As far as I know membership EU is not being voted on in this country any time soon.
 

wilting

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Feb 22, 2008
Messages
353
The sensationalist blather in the OP only serves to reveal a profound failure to understand the Union.

The 2014 European Parliament elections, thanks to changes introduced by the Lisbon treaty, will hopefully be a major step forward for Union level democracy.
 

ibis

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Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
12,359
The sensationalist blather in the OP only serves to reveal a profound failure to understand the Union.

The 2014 European Parliament elections, thanks to changes introduced by the Lisbon treaty, will hopefully be a major step forward for Union level democracy.
But if one rejects the idea that there can be such a thing as European level democracy in the first place, then the EU cannot ever be democratic and is thus obviously an undemocratic monstrosity which should be slain.
 

R3volution_R3ady

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Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
2,368
The sensationalist blather in the OP only serves to reveal a profound failure to understand the Union.

The 2014 European Parliament elections, thanks to changes introduced by the Lisbon treaty, will hopefully be a major step forward for Union level democracy.
The EU is one of the greatest economic problems facing this country and it's people.
 

discentes

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Joined
Feb 14, 2013
Messages
2,717
While I do not agree with the sentiment, you are correct.. 75 to 80% of our laws come in the form of EU Directives.. Which is why the Seanad is totally unnecessary..

We decide what pot holes to fix..
Directives have to be transposed into Irish law. Do you mean regulations?
 

statsman

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Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
56,218
But if one rejects the idea that there can be such a thing as European level democracy in the first place, then the EU cannot ever be democratic and is thus obviously an undemocratic monstrosity which should be slain.
The fact that you reject something doesn't mean you are right. You'd need to demonstrate the truth of your assertion.
 

ManUnited

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Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
5,221
There's far too much talk about the Seanad abolition that you'd be forgiven in thinking it actually meant something.

It doesn't.

If people were truly concerned about where this country is headed and the politicians that are bringing us in this direction, how about we first actually deal with the ones we don't elect? The Seanad fiasco is a distraction and it's working perfectly. The thought of having a national debate on our role in the European Union is absolutely off the table. Nobody is talking about it. Nobody wants to talk about it. All of our parties are pro-EU and there are no alternative voices to be heard and that's just the way the Establishment likes it.

The European Union is not a recipe for prosperity. It is not a recipe for jobs. The most transparent and accountable government is local government. The EU Commission on the other hand, lead by unelected, undemocratic Commissioners and run by an appointed bureaucracy is an affront to an accountable and transparent society. Even the Council is secretive and meet behind closed doors away from the people. All it does is demonstrate contempt for democracy and a reluctance to engage with voters. It relies on centralism, remoteness and wreaks havoc on the economies of it's members.

75% of our laws are dictated from another country. Just what have we got ourselves into here? Those that dictate these laws are not voted in by us and we cannot remove them. Dail Eireann does not have a say in these laws and it cannot repeal them. The EU dictates policy in farming, finance, fishing, immigration, trade, employment, energy, business and law. It's now trying to control foreign affairs and tax (and once that happens, let us be under no illusions here - Ireland is F.I.N.I.S.H.E.D!).

This has little to do with trade and everything to do with protectionism. Where is the growth?! It's nowhere to be found. We're at a snails pace. We've reached an absolute standstill. Isn't it bizarre that a country like the United Kingdom trade more with Ireland, a region of just five million than it does with Brazil, China, India and Russia? Ireland needs to open it's economy up to the world, not just the EU. Well then we hear that if we challenge the EU's role in our lives that jobs will be lost, that businesses will just up-and-leave. Nothing could be further from the truth. The only people that benefit from the EU are the big corporations. Those multi-billionaire companies that have the resources to deal with the regulatory frenzy. What about the little guys? The ladder has been well and truly pulled up. So, is the EU great for multi-billion Euro corporations - YES! Is the EU great for everyone else? NO!

It's time we started treating this Seanad debate for the farce it truly is and start focusing on the elephant in the room here. Whether or not the Senate is abolished is absolutely irrelevant and I don't want people being mislead in thinking it does or that it's some kind of step forward here with regards to reform. It is nothing more than rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
It's not that bad.
 

R3volution_R3ady

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Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
2,368
It's not that bad.
Are you mad?

It's worse!

When are we going to gain control of our own lives? Of Dail Eireann? Why are you putting your life in the hands of unelected shadows?

This is a serious problem, moreso than you can imagine and it needs to be addressed. A national debate on leaving the European Union must be started!
 

discentes

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Joined
Feb 14, 2013
Messages
2,717
Are you mad?

It's worse!

When are we going to gain control of our own lives? Of Dail Eireann? Why are you putting your life in the hands of unelected shadows?

This is a serious problem, moreso than you can imagine and it needs to be addressed. A national debate on leaving the European Union must be started!
Keep your adolescent libertarian theories to the States, where you've a modicum of a chance of being taken seriously. The majority of Europeans understand that the Union operates at an inter-governmental and supranational level and as such has a complex structure. Whatever about you, I'm certainly in control of my life.
 
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Sucker Punch

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Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
1,561
The sensationalist blather in the OP only serves to reveal a profound failure to understand the Union.

The 2014 European Parliament elections, thanks to changes introduced by the Lisbon treaty, will hopefully be a major step forward for Union level democracy.
I doubt very much whether changes introduced by the Lisbon Treaty will buck this trend:



If turnout was in fact increasing or stabilizing then that would legitimize a "step forward for Union level democracy". The approach you seem to advocate appears to be a cart before the horse.
 
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ManUnited

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Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
5,221
Are you mad?

It's worse!

When are we going to gain control of our own lives? Of Dail Eireann? Why are you putting your life in the hands of unelected shadows?

This is a serious problem, moreso than you can imagine and it needs to be addressed. A national debate on leaving the European Union must be started!
Worse than your op?
 

ibis

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Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
12,359
The fact that you reject something doesn't mean you are right. You'd need to demonstrate the truth of your assertion.
True enough. I didn't say I agreed, only that that was some people's position.
 

ibis

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
12,359
I doubt very much whether changes introduced by the Lisbon Treaty will buck this trend:



If turnout was in fact increasing or stabilizing then that would legitimize a "step forward for Union level democracy". The approach you seem to advocate appears to be a cart before the horse approach.
I'd be hesitant to use turnout as a gauge of democratic progress.
 

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