Former Taoiseach Brian Cowen seriously ill in hospital

hiding behind a poster

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hiding behind a poster

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OK. And where is that liability now? Care to say anything about the up to 200k salaries NAMA were paying developers?
This may come as a shock to you, but putting developers out of business doesn't exactly help solve a housing crisis. Developers were paid salaries as part of deals to either develop unused land, or complete unfinished developments, and those salaries were massively below what developers had previously been paying themselves. The result was that a lot of ghost estates were finished - a huge problem several years ago, but just like unemployment, emigration and the budget deficit amongst others, a problem that's never mentioned anymore because it's been fixed.
 

hiding behind a poster

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My point on job creation was you guys run as fast as you can to distance yourself from job creation/losses when things are bad. But when employment is good, you run as fast as you can toward it hailing how great you are at creating jobs....or as you called it, job creation policies.
When you find a government party that does the reverse, in any country in the world, do please let me know. In the meantime, do you accept that full-time employment is about 250,000 higher now than it was in 2012, and that income tax/USC receipts are now billions higher each year than they were in 2012, despite there being no salary figure below €70k that now pays more, or even the same amount, of income tax and USC than it did in 2012?

I know full well what you are attempting to say and it was pretty much along the lines of Berties "Nobody told me". FG in opposition were asking for more spending but you go ahead and try to rewrite history ya shill. Its contemptible really.
No, as I said already, FG were proposing the same amount of spending, but on different priorities, with a focus on infrastructure rather than pay rises and welfare hikes. Do you also accept that a government with a majority is not beholden to the opposition in terms of deciding spending?

And I'm not quite sure what point you are attempting to make on the housing v emigration matter. It does however smack of some form of running away from responsibility or deflection toward oppositions failings.
It feels to me like you decide your answers to my posts before you read them - or else you read them through a prism that means you don't take in anything that I said. The point I'm making on emigration and housing is very simple - those parties that now shout the loudest about the housing crisis were the same ones who said that FG economic policies, to fix the public finances, get the economy growing, and get people back to work, would in fact make the economy worse, and increase unemployment. Had those parties been right, there would now be no housing crisis worth speaking of, because emigration would've continued, unemployment would've stayed high, and thus there'd be empty houses all over the place, like there were back then. Because we wouldn't have all those returning emigrants, we wouldn't have all those new migrants, and we wouldn't have all those young Irish staying in the country rather than leaving, all of whom of course put pressure on a housing supply that is obviously smaller because the building sector crashed and nothing was built for years. (Meanwhile you want to put developers out of business because they played their part in the crash, just at a time when we need them building to resolve the shortage, but that's another story)

And on this stuff you keep saying about spin, and deflection, and Fine Gael shill and so on and so on - I get that you don't like me because I'm a Fine Gael member, I don't mind that. What's annoying is that rather than actually addressing any points I make, your argument is invariably that because I'm a member of Fine Gael, all you have to do is point that out, rather than address the actual arguments I make. It's also notable that you very rarely make any claim that anything I'm saying isn't factually true - and that in itself is telling.
 

YouKnowWhatIMeanLike

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That doesn't mean the developers got a bailout. You still haven't contradicted one word I said.
Developer A gets reckless loans from Irish bank to buy a site from developer B at massively inflated Celtic tiger prices for €70m in 2006. A few years later the bank goes bankrupt. NAMA steps in and buys the loan at a steep discount. Developer A goes into receivership. 7 years later developer B buys site back from NAMA at knockdown price and developer B made a handsome profit of €50m. Who carries the loss?
 
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Watcher2

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How have Fine Gael exacerbated either of those?
Oh stop trolling. They have gotten far worse under FG. That's how and you know it and have decided to troll the thread.

Get on over to your Mairead McGuinness thread, the one you started but decided rather quickly to abandon.
 

Watcher2

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This may come as a shock to you, but putting developers out of business doesn't exactly help solve a housing crisis. Developers were paid salaries as part of deals to either develop unused land, or complete unfinished developments, and those salaries were massively below what developers had previously been paying themselves. The result was that a lot of ghost estates were finished - a huge problem several years ago, but just like unemployment, emigration and the budget deficit amongst others, a problem that's never mentioned anymore because it's been fixed.
No, its not a shock but it supports the claim you have been attempting (very much in vain) to disprove. Your post above is admission that they were bailed out.

And tell us now about the debts outstanding you claimed were against the developers. What is their status now?
 

Watcher2

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..........

It feels to me like you decide your answers to my posts before you read them - or else you read them through a prism that means you don't take in anything that I said.

...........

What's annoying is that rather than actually addressing any points I make, your argument is invariably that because I'm a member of Fine Gael, all you have to do is point that out, rather than address the actual arguments I make. It's also notable that you very rarely make any claim that anything I'm saying isn't factually true - and that in itself is telling.
I'll just point you to my above two posts. It is totally dumbfounding that for instance, the exchange regarding FG exacerbating homelessness and waiting lists you asked the question. You accuse me of not debating honestly with you but we see clearly that you have not done so with me. And not just me either. On a second instance, you claimed the developers did not get a bailout but in the same breath you explained the bailout that they actually received.

So I'll bid you good night.
 

belcoo666

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If you want to comment on the government that's fine, but please do so on the basis of the facts. The recovery and jobs boom is not "mainly Dublin-centred", it's nationwide. There is virtually full employment nationwide now. As for the housing crisis, I've already made the very point you've just made about it, so why are you repeating it back to me?
As i said earlier keep your childish spinning to a more relevant section of the forum . Fine Gael found out in the recent local elections how happy people are with "their full employment everywhere BS ". Grow up
 

toughbutfair

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Two questions:

1) What would the economic effects of letting AIB and BOI collapse have been?

2) Even if by some miracle the cost of 1) above had been zero, what would you have done about the €20bn annual budget deficit, and 250,000 lost jobs that would have happened anyway?
I would have defaulted on the bank debt, introduced a severe austerity which would have made the recession worse, more unemployment and much more emigration. We would then exit the recession, at some stage, with the 30bn debt we entered it with.
 

YouKnowWhatIMeanLike

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I would have defaulted on the bank debt, introduced a severe austerity which would have made the recession worse, more unemployment and much more emigration. We would then exit the recession, at some stage, with the 30bn debt we entered it with.
if you already go back in time why not avoid the debt boom in the first place. why not just go with the benefits that came with the euro in 2000 and go for a steady and reasonable growth path? considering that the state raked up more than 65 billion euro in new debt by way of continued overspending after the 2008 crash in addition to the bank bailout.
 
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Eoin Coir

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Media built him up to be a genius,even late Noel Whelan,was in on the act.He was great craic and story teller in the pub late at night
 

Ardillaun

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This may come as a shock to you, but putting developers out of business doesn't exactly help solve a housing crisis. Developers were paid salaries as part of deals to either develop unused land, or complete unfinished developments, and those salaries were massively below what developers had previously been paying themselves. The result was that a lot of ghost estates were finished - a huge problem several years ago, but just like unemployment, emigration and the budget deficit amongst others, a problem that's never mentioned anymore because it's been fixed.
The sight of developers getting money from the state stuck in my craw but there’s no denying the extraordinary recovery that Ireland has made and the almost total disappearance of the ghost estates, recently considered an insoluble problem. What I’d like to see is more land in and around Dublin freed up for these characters to develop.
 

mr_anderson

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The sight of developers getting money from the state stuck in my craw but there’s no denying the extraordinary recovery that Ireland has made and the almost total disappearance of the ghost estates, recently considered an insoluble problem. What I’d like to see is more land in and around Dublin freed up for these characters to develop.
When you give free housing to anyone that shows up, there's really no magic to it.
 

Eoin Coir

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You are starting to stoop very low now.
Are you seriously saying that you would sooner place your faith in a FG establishment hack like Coveney who was listening hundreds of miles away than the reporter in front of him?
Come on sir, grow up. Don't let your hatred blind you.
another stooge David Davin Power said was merry but not inebriated, I suspect many hacks loved the food & drink which FF always provide for them
 

redmonite

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We have a housing crisis because less houses are been built than at any time with a recovery and a jobs boom which is mainly Dublin centred , nothing to do with the "success" of Fine Gael policies.
Perhaps you should keep your blueshirt spinning to a more relevant section of the forum
This has happened before, when unemployment falls it puts the housing market under pressure. In the late sixtys it was solved with massive public housing schemes but this led to the likes Ballymun and a host of social problems. In the late nineties FF solved the problem by freeing up credit which made it profitable to build houses anywhere.
 

Eoin Coir

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Any word on Cowen of late, I read somewhere that he was in an induced coma,it must be very serious
 

stanley

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This has happened before, when unemployment falls it puts the housing market under pressure. In the late sixtys it was solved with massive public housing schemes but this led to the likes Ballymun and a host of social problems. In the late nineties FF solved the problem by freeing up credit which made it profitable to build houses anywhere.
And FF created a property bubble called the Celtic Tiger which bankrupted the country and a mountain of debt which is now passed to the children.
 


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