France & Germany to sign Aachen Treaty - core within a core?


Clanrickard

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Read my earlier post closely. Prussia was formally ended in 1946. Most of its former territories ended up divided up between the DDR, Poland and Russia. If the Federal Republic was dominated by any entities, it was by North Rhine Westphalia, Bavaria, and to a lesser extent Baden Wurttemburg.

You’re clueless.
That is what he said.
 

Clanrickard

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Germany does business with Russia. It cooperates politically wth Russia. It has throughout our lifetimes (mine anyway), going back to Brandt’s Realpolitik.

It wasn’t Germany’s instinct to shaft Russia the way the Americans did with Gorbachev. Far better to cooperate than undermine. They learned from history.

Ukraine is another case in point. Russia was never going to give up the Crimea it had integrated into Ukraine during the Cold War. Ukraine made a big mistake over the issue of the leasing of ports to the Russian Navy. It’s been downhill for Ukraine ever since. Russia’s behaviour has been brutish and Machiavellian, but they learned their lesson from how they were walked all over during Yeltsin’s premiership. Why won’t Germany involve itself directly in this? Because it knows the background history, and knows there’s no point getting up on a high horse.
Rubbish. An ex German Premier is on the board of Gazprom. This greasy business dealings and shows a worrying lack of moral compass from eh German establishment. Russia didn't "give up" anything. It was part of Ukraine and was forcibly annexed.
 

truthisfree

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Rubbish. An ex German Premier is on the board of Gazprom. This greasy business dealings and shows a worrying lack of moral compass from eh German establishment. Russia didn't "give up" anything. It was part of Ukraine and was forcibly annexed.
You being the resident expert on greasy business dealings and a worrying lack of moral compass!
 

Clanrickard

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McDave

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Rubbish. An ex German Premier is on the board of Gazprom. This greasy business dealings and shows a worrying lack of moral compass from eh German establishment. Russia didn't "give up" anything. It was part of Ukraine and was forcibly annexed.
So what? Germany are being sensible in securing their own energy supplies. Ukraine were skimming off overland pipelines. And Poland’s conservative Catholic nutjobs have proven themselves an unreliable strategic partner. In that light, Nordstrom 2 makes perfect sense.

Crimea was transferred by the USSR from Russia to Ukraine in 1954.
 

NMunsterman

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So what? Germany are being sensible in securing their own energy supplies. Ukraine were skimming off overland pipelines. And Poland’s conservative Catholic nutjobs have proven themselves an unreliable strategic partner. In that light, Nordstrom 2 makes perfect sense.

Crimea was transferred by the USSR from Russia to Ukraine in 1954.
Under Nikita Khrushchev.
 

McDave

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By a Ukranian.
My understanding is that it was on Kruschev’s watch. He was born on the Russian side of the Ukrainian border, of Russian parents.

The transfer of Crimea was primarily to increase ‘Russification’ of Ukraine within the context of a permanent USSR.
 

toughbutfair

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Read my earlier post closely. Prussia was formally ended in 1946. Most of its former territories ended up divided up between the DDR, Poland and Russia. If the Federal Republic was dominated by any entities, it was by North Rhine Westphalia, Bavaria, and to a lesser extent Baden Wurttemburg.

You’re clueless.
As another poster pointed out to you , which you insulted them for, my posts about Prussia are in the past tense , so your reply in the present tense doesn’t challenge what I said.
 

McDave

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As another poster pointed out to you , which you insulted them for, my posts about Prussia are in the past tense , so your reply in the present tense doesn’t challenge what I said.
You used both past and present tense in the post in question. You clearly conflated Prussia with modern day Germany. I clearly called you on it. You’re obviously trying to slither away from your stupid comparison.

Germany today is as exemplary a democracy as any. You are attempting to characterize it as a militaristic, imperialist, elitist entity, which were clear characteristics of Prussia. At least have the honesty to own your prejudice.
 

McDave

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The post in question! Note use of both past and present tenses. :)
the Prussians convinced those states on the west that they should allow Prussia rule them to keep them safe after they provoked a conflict with their neighbours (France). The German instinct is to rule. Bismarck would approve of the current German deception. Never trust the Germans, remember what they are and what they did.
 

toughbutfair

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You used both past and present tense in the post in question. You clearly conflated Prussia with modern day Germany. I clearly called you on it. You’re obviously trying to slither away from your stupid comparison.

Germany today is as exemplary a democracy as any. You are attempting to characterize it as a militaristic, imperialist, elitist entity, which were clear characteristics of Prussia. At least have the honesty to own your prejudice.
Yes, I do believe that present day Germany has some similar characteristics to Prussia . Whereas the Prussians tried to dominate via military force to impose their will, modern day Germany who was financially bailed out on a massive scale is now using the EU to fatten their own coffers and then use this finance to try and dominate the other countries in the EU. The German mentality has always been one of controlling the rest of Europe.
 

toughbutfair

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The post in question! Note use of both past and present tenses. :)

All references to Prussia are in the past tense , except for the Bismarck conditional tense. No present tense reference to Prussia. Therefore I am clearly sating Prussia’s past actions and Germany’s current actions have much in common. Your reply, which contains insults for some reason, tries to counter argue by saying that Prussia no longer exists.
 

McDave

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All references to Prussia are in the past tense , except for the Bismarck conditional tense. No present tense reference to Prussia. Therefore I am clearly sating Prussia’s past actions and Germany’s current actions have much in common. Your reply, which contains insults for some reason, tries to counter argue by saying that Prussia no longer exists.
You clearly link Prussia’s characteristics to that of the FRG. That’s a travesty of the reality.

As to reasoning, your third sentence does not follow automatically from the first. As for ‘much in common’, you’re now clearly trying to downplay what you originally said. No sale.

Of course Prussia no longer exists. It has been replaced by a republic with democratic values, and a commitment to private property, enterprise and social protection. As for ‘insults’, don’t be so prissy. You’re quite happy to insult the citizens of a democracy. You’re a blowhard and a hypocrite. You’re in no position to throw stones.
 

McDave

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Yes, I do believe that present day Germany has some similar characteristics to Prussia . Whereas the Prussians tried to dominate via military force to impose their will, modern day Germany who was financially bailed out on a massive scale is now using the EU to fatten their own coffers and then use this finance to try and dominate the other countries in the EU. The German mentality has always been one of controlling the rest of Europe.
In your opinion. In my opinion, you’re naive and deluded.
 

toughbutfair

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In your opinion. In my opinion, you’re naive and deluded.
Note how I don’t feel the need to insult you. I can discuss ideas . I understand that some people aren’t highly educated and they still have valid views , however, even if you aren’t highly educated , you should learn how to counter argue without insulting. It is a useful trait to have in any work situation. Of course, you are free to ignore my advice and retort by insulting me.
 

McDave

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Note how I don’t feel the need to insult you. I can discuss ideas . I understand that some people aren’t highly educated and they still have valid views , however, even if you aren’t highly educated , you should learn how to counter argue without insulting. It is a useful trait to have in any work situation. Of course, you are free to ignore my advice and retort by insulting me.
Your starting point is to insult a functioning European democracy and, by extension, its citizens. There is no middle ground in what you’re saying, or how you’re saying it. Just smart aleck, extremist hyperbole.

Let me be clear here. You can say what you like. But I have no respect for your confrontational, intemperate, disrespectful tone. I choose to adopt a particular method in my discourse with posters like you. Right back in your face, if you please. Take it or leave it.

I’ll save a civilized tone for more civilised posters on this forum, with whom I can have a productive conversation.
 

McDave

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Are you confusing deficits with debt? Remember the issue , France spent over the limit repeatedly and nothing happened. They and the Germans are hypocrites and control freaks. People need to read more German history to understand what they are.
Germany’s non-compliance with budget limits was a direct response to the once-off costs of absorbing the DDR. Since then they have been Maastricht-compliant to a fault.

On this basis, Germany cannot be characterised as hypocritical. It’s clear you need to read more German history. Starting with the more recent stuff.
 
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