Frances Fitzgerald says FG's Seanad abolition campaign was 'demeaning'

Rocky

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Not true. Enda still says he wants to legislate for the 1979 reforms passed in referendum. What is a but worrying though is that he says he wants the Senators to have a say in the plans. If they have their way that might not happen - especially the university Senators some of whom would lose their seats if the university franchise was expanded. Asking the turkeys to vote for Christmas could be a stalling tactic.
The 1979 referendum was actually about taking away a constitutional block on the breakup of the NUI, which looked possible at the time. It actually had zero to do with the Seanad.

However I imagine they will still open up to the University panels to all third level graduates. However that isn't exactly a ground breaking reform that will make the Seanad useful or do anything really.
 


Spanner Island

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Like or no the referendum means that it is here now no matter what for generations to come , if you really wanted reform you would have voted to scrap it and start again.

They have already announced what plans they have , they are going to open up the voting process to a few more colleges, the functions and activities will remain the same , in real terms no reform just even more expense for a useless chamber.

What will be a bit of a laugh to look at is people who are embarrassed about their no vote trying to claim this as some sort of victory for reform instead of admitting that fell for this bluster hook line and sinker.
Well I certainly won't be one of them... and now that think about it... I didn't vote No at all...

I intentionally spoiled my vote...

And I did so because the referendum was a total farce from start to finish and I refused to legitimise it by voting one way or the other...

In fact if I didn't think it is the duty of all eligible citizens to vote and that it should be a legal obligation for all eligible citizens to vote I wouldn't have bothered my arse voting at all.

Plus there was no real choice presented in the Seanad referendum and the entire Govt. 'campaign' was an arrogant insult to every Irish citizen imo...

Kenny behaved appallingly in relation to it... especially when it was he who instigated it pretty much off his own bat...

A deadline should now be set by which time the Seanad is reformed and then a second referendum should be held to either keep it or dump it...

This could perhaps occur on the same day the same sex marriage referendum is held on... don't see why not.

And if this or something similar doesn't happen then us voters need to look in the mirror and ask ourselves why we allow our self serving cretin riddled 'establishment' to continue crapping all over us and doing whatever the hell they like...

It's not their country. It's all of ours and they and the parasitic riddled 'establishment' need to be taken down more than a peg or two and told that they work for us and not vice versa and if they don't like it and behave accordingly then they shouldn't put themselves up for election...
 

turdsl

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Mr Kenny has no interest in any reform,it is just waffle from him, why would he please the
electorate after the wallop they gave him.
 

shiel

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Mr Kenny has no interest in any reform,it is just waffle from him, why would he please the
electorate after the wallop they gave him.
I do not care a ************************e if the electorate gave Kenny a wallop.

The main point is they gave themselves a bigger wallop by saddling the ordinary people of this country with an expensive and unnecessary talking shop for the elite and their cronies ad infinitum.

And they did it at the behest of those same self important people in the media and academia who either lauded or ignored the policies of the boom that eventually bankrupt the country.
 

hmmm

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Plus there was no real choice presented in the Seanad referendum and the entire Govt. 'campaign' was an arrogant insult to every Irish citizen imo...
There was a choice. Keep it as it is or get rid of it. And your lack of vote meant that we get to keep it.
A deadline should now be set by which time the Seanad is reformed and then a second referendum should be held to either keep it or dump it...
Naive in the extreme, and taxpayers have to pay for your gullibility.
 

Spanner Island

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There was a choice. Keep it as it is or get rid of it. And your lack of vote meant that we get to keep it.
It was a non choice imo...

It was a total waste of time and money. Utter bullsh!t the entire thing.

Naive in the extreme, and taxpayers have to pay for your gullibility.
Asking a question on the same day as the same sex marriage referendum... shouldn't cost too much if the gobsh!tes kept it simple...

I may be idealistic but I'm certainly not naïve when it comes to the lousy state or the rotten 'establishment'...

In fact I reckon my eyes are open a lot wider to the cynicism and contempt with which we're treated constantly than most peoples' eyes...

Rolling over and letting the f***wits do what they've been doing for decades by indulging their bullsh!t is pathetic and is what has this country f***ed...

Abolishing the Seanad would have given them exactly what they wanted and would have allowed Kenny to claim he'd delivered real reform when anyone with a brain knows that abolishing the Seanad is nothing close to the 'transformational reform' we were promised...

The entire thing was a cynical red herring... including the claim that it cost €20 million p.a. to run, a claim which was blown out of the water fast and yet was clung to regardless by the appalling Govt. 'campaign'....

Naïve :roll: :lol: it certainly isn't me who's naïve around here...
 
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turdsl

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It vwas bad judgement on the Taoiseach's part he should not have initiated the project
when he was unable to go on TV himself to debate it, blaming the media or the ordinary
people is just nonsense.
 

NewGoldDream

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I do not care a ************************e if the electorate gave Kenny a wallop.

The main point is they gave themselves a bigger wallop by saddling the ordinary people of this country with an expensive and unnecessary talking shop for the elite and their cronies ad infinitum.

And they did it at the behest of those same self important people in the media and academia who either lauded or ignored the policies of the boom that eventually bankrupt the country.
Oh dear God, the mantra starts again.

Other posters here have said that they don't member your new found claim, that the media was anti abolition.

If we go back and count the number of posts you have made linking the Seanad vote and the "bankrupting of the country" will it demonstrate to you that you have a fixation?

If we compare that to the number of times you made the point before the result of the vote, will it demonstrate that the theory may be more founded more in bitter grapes than actuality?

I know you claim you were too busy to make the point beforehand...but you were posting here, about the referendum.

It sounds like you're in shock at the result and you have come up with a nonsense explanation to rationalise it to yourself, one that contradicts what other posters recollects, one that bears no comparison with your observations before the result.
 

shiel

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Denial is rife about the retention of the Seanad. Any oul' ************************e will do to distract attention from the fact that its retention was a monumental mistake.

REPEAT

The fact that our politicians, like all politicians, abused power did not justify saddling ad infinitum the taxpayers of this country with funding an elitist talking shop for even more politicians in the Seanad.

This is especially regrettable when the politicians being kept in the manner to which they have become accustomed are the cronies of the elite in the media and academia.

Voting to retain the Seanad was an expensive own goal.

The fact that such a statement annoys a whole lot of people is even more evidence that they are in denial.

They are in the same denial as many were when a small number of people pointed out that the recklessness of the boom was in danger of bankrupting the country.
 

greengoose2

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Denial is rife about the retention of the Seanad. Any oul' ************************e will do to distract attention from the fact that its retention was a monumental mistake.

REPEAT

The fact that our politicians, like all politicians, abused power did not justify saddling ad infinitum the taxpayers of this country with funding an elitist talking shop for even more politicians in the Seanad.

This is especially regrettable when the politicians being kept in the manner to which they have become accustomed are the cronies of the elite in the media and academia.

Voting to retain the Seanad was an expensive own goal.

The fact that such a statement annoys a whole lot of people is even more evidence that they are in denial.

They are in the same denial as many were when a small number of people pointed out that the recklessness of the boom was in danger of bankrupting the country.
Poets in the Park is more of a waste of money...
 

NewGoldDream

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Denial is rife about the retention of the Seanad. Any oul' ************************e will do to distract attention from the fact that its retention was a monumental mistake.

REPEAT

The fact that our politicians, like all politicians, abused power did not justify saddling ad infinitum the taxpayers of this country with funding an elitist talking shop for even more politicians in the Seanad.

This is especially regrettable when the politicians being kept in the manner to which they have become accustomed are the cronies of the elite in the media and academia.

Voting to retain the Seanad was an expensive own goal.

The fact that such a statement annoys a whole lot of people is even more evidence that they are in denial.

They are in the same denial as many were when a small number of people pointed out that the recklessness of the boom was in danger of bankrupting the country.
Um.

Denial?

You know that the anti abolition side won and your lot lost?

What are you on about denial about retention of the Seanad is rife? FF led the campaign against the proposal, and we won. Far from being annoyed, success is always enjoyable. And success while being right even more enjoyable.

All your new found recollection that the media were against you is hilarious. But clearly you believe that your sustained bout of sour grapes has merit...
 

ergo2

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Shiel,

regarding Seanad Eireann, the people have spoken.

Move on.

Put up your reform suggestions
 
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Spanner Island

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Denial is rife about the retention of the Seanad. Any oul' ************************e will do to distract attention from the fact that its retention was a monumental mistake.

REPEAT

The fact that our politicians, like all politicians, abused power did not justify saddling ad infinitum the taxpayers of this country with funding an elitist talking shop for even more politicians in the Seanad.

This is especially regrettable when the politicians being kept in the manner to which they have become accustomed are the cronies of the elite in the media and academia.

Voting to retain the Seanad was an expensive own goal.

The fact that such a statement annoys a whole lot of people is even more evidence that they are in denial.

They are in the same denial as many were when a small number of people pointed out that the recklessness of the boom was in danger of bankrupting the country.
Do you like being treated as an imbecile?

€20 million is nothing in the greater scheme of things and certainly nothing in the ocean of money the 'state' blows every year...

Plus the €20 million figure was shredded early on...

Giving them abolition so they could claim they'd delivered real reform would have been the mistake imo.

'REPEAT' all you like.

You won't be changing my mind on it.
 

Rocky

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Well I certainly won't be one of them... and now that think about it... I didn't vote No at all...

I intentionally spoiled my vote...

And I did so because the referendum was a total farce from start to finish and I refused to legitimise it by voting one way or the other...

In fact if I didn't think it is the duty of all eligible citizens to vote and that it should be a legal obligation for all eligible citizens to vote I wouldn't have bothered my arse voting at all.

Plus there was no real choice presented in the Seanad referendum and the entire Govt. 'campaign' was an arrogant insult to every Irish citizen imo...

Kenny behaved appallingly in relation to it... especially when it was he who instigated it pretty much off his own bat...

A deadline should now be set by which time the Seanad is reformed and then a second referendum should be held to either keep it or dump it...

This could perhaps occur on the same day the same sex marriage referendum is held on... don't see why not.

And if this or something similar doesn't happen then us voters need to look in the mirror and ask ourselves why we allow our self serving cretin riddled 'establishment' to continue crapping all over us and doing whatever the hell they like...

It's not their country. It's all of ours and they and the parasitic riddled 'establishment' need to be taken down more than a peg or two and told that they work for us and not vice versa and if they don't like it and behave accordingly then they shouldn't put themselves up for election...
Nice rant.

The problem is what is reform?

So many people jump around about reform but I've yet to see one decent reform plan. Instead of attacking Enda for not doing so. They should do it themselves. The reason they don't is because it's impossible or dam near it. Trying to get everyone or even a majority to agree to it would be even harder again. It's the same people who complain about the government being too powerful and then yet what the government to solve every problem.

The whole thing is a load of nonsense. Not in one state in the world, does a second chamber serve a valuable purpose, with the arguable exception of federal states. It's a relic of a time when the elites felt they should have a check on the people. A whole host of countries are struggling to find a way in which they can be relevant and none have succeeded. The smart ones, as usual the Scandinavia ones, just got rid of them.

They were completely right to try to abolish it. Now that that's failed, if I was Enda I would ask all the people who want reform to band together and agree on a reform plan that isn't completely unworkable and probably unconstitutional like the Zappone plan and come back to me. I say that on the basis, that I don't believe they will ever achieve that because it's impossible and two Enda's and the whole government's time would be better spent on a whole host of other things including Dail reform, although I don't even know what that is either.
 

Rocky

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Do you like being treated as an imbecile?

€20 million is nothing in the greater scheme of things and certainly nothing in the ocean of money the 'state' blows every year...

Plus the €20 million figure was shredded early on...

Giving them abolition so they could claim they'd delivered real reform would have been the mistake imo.

'REPEAT' all you like.

You won't be changing my mind on it.
Not voting for abolition just as easily has made them disillusion as to the benefits of trying to bring in reform and the willingness of Irish people to support reform. And honestly I believe we are a people who are hostile to any change and I do think that's why it failed.

However leaving that to one side, it probably hasn't made any difference to what further reform they will bring in.

Reform of the political system, will be on the government's achievement list in the next election. There is already enough there with the abolishment of town councils and the like. It will be well below the economic stuff, but presuming that was good, that was always going to be the case. If the Seanad referendum had passed, that would have been on the list. Now that it hasn't extending the franchise to all 3rd level graduates probably will be. That's the height of it really.
 

shiel

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Shiel,

regarding Seanad Eireann, the people have spoken.

Move on.

Put up your reform suggestions
That is the equivalent of the statement 'FORGET THE PAST. WE ARE WHERE WE ARE' when the country went broke.
 

Spanner Island

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Nice rant.

The problem is what is reform?

So many people jump around about reform but I've yet to see one decent reform plan. Instead of attacking Enda for not doing so. They should do it themselves. The reason they don't is because it's impossible or dam near it. Trying to get everyone or even a majority to agree to it would be even harder again. It's the same people who complain about the government being too powerful and then yet what the government to solve every problem.
That is the epitome of the apathetic sh!te that has this country f***ed...

Whose country is this FFS??? Theirs or ours?

AFAIC'ed it's ours and I'm well and truly f***ed off with apathetic boll*cks like the sh!te you've typed above...

You should be ashamed of your apathy you useless waste of space...

The whole thing is a load of nonsense. Not in one state in the world, does a second chamber serve a valuable purpose, with the arguable exception of federal states. It's a relic of a time when the elites felt they should have a check on the people. A whole host of countries are struggling to find a way in which they can be relevant and none have succeeded. The smart ones, as usual the Scandinavia ones, just got rid of them.
Brilliant... are you really as much of a dumb ass as you appear to be?

My point isn't that the Seanad should be kept as it is... :roll: FFS... nobody in their right mind would want that...

The point is either make it relevant... give it space, a chance, a fixed deadline and ensure the Dail doesn't scupper it for its own ends... and for the Seanad to make itself relevant...

And if that doesn't happen... then f*** it...

If you weren't utterly insulted by the pathetic Govt. campaign then there's something wrong with you... imo.

They were completely right to try to abolish it. Now that that's failed, if I was Enda I would ask all the people who want reform to band together and agree on a reform plan that isn't completely unworkable and probably unconstitutional like the Zappone plan and come back to me. I say that on the basis, that I don't believe they will ever achieve that because it's impossible and two Enda's and the whole government's time would be better spent on a whole host of other things including Dail reform, although I don't even know what that is either.
More apathetic and complete boll*cks from you.
 
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Spanner Island

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Not voting for abolition just as easily has made them disillusion as to the benefits of trying to bring in reform and the willingness of Irish people to support reform. And honestly I believe we are a people who are hostile to any change and I do think that's why it failed.

However leaving that to one side, it probably hasn't made any difference to what further reform they will bring in.

Reform of the political system, will be on the government's achievement list in the next election. There is already enough there with the abolishment of town councils and the like. It will be well below the economic stuff, but presuming that was good, that was always going to be the case. If the Seanad referendum had passed, that would have been on the list. Now that it hasn't extending the franchise to all 3rd level graduates probably will be. That's the height of it really.
More boll*cks from you... next election w*nk....

This Govt. has had more than enough time to introduce at least some of the 'transformational reform' Enda & Co. banged on about before the last election...

No offence but you're full of sh!t Rocky...

The fact is the Irish 'establishment' is rotten to the core and needs a complete clear out and a complete overhaul...
 

Rocky

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That is the epitome of the apathetic sh!te that has this country f***ed...

Whose country is this FFS??? Theirs or ours?

AFAIC'ed it's ours and I'm well and truly f***ed off with apathetic boll*cks like the sh!te you've typed above...

You should be ashamed of your apathy you useless waste of space...



Brilliant... are you really as much of a dumb ass as you appear to be?

My point isn't that the Seanad should be kept as it is... :roll: FFS... nobody in their right mind would want that...

The point is either make it relevant... give it space, a chance, a fixed deadline and ensure the Dail doesn't scupper it for its own ends... and for the Seanad to make itself relevant...

And if that doesn't happen... then f*** it...

If you weren't utterly insulted by the pathetic Govt. campaign then there's something wrong with you... imo.



More apathetic and complete boll*cks from you.
Great rant again.

I think it should be abolished since about 2005. I managed to make my mind up about that on my own. It's really not that hard, although to be fair I did study it. Stop waiting for other people to tell you what to think and realise no one has access to any real information you don't. This whole nonsense about referendums that we need to be convinced to vote a certain way, is just that nonsense. All the information that exists is there. Convince yourself. Find a solution yourself. Read the material. If no one provides an answer and you can't, it's probably because there isn't one. Not because Enda and his evil allies don't want one.

Your post is all about apathy. My post is about the complete opposite.
 


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