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French Assembly votes 335:1 to ban full veil

McDave

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France lawmakers approve ban on full veil
France’s National Assembly on Tuesday backed by a crushing majority a bill banning the wearing of the full face veil in public spaces, a garment which politicians across the political spectrum regard as a symbol of religious extremism.
FT.com / Europe - French lawmakers approve ban on full veil

The FT goes on to report that Belgium and Spain are taking similar moves.

See also: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0713/breaking45.html

I personally welcome this ban. I agree with the analysis that it is essentially an oppressive tool against women, and that it impinges directly on human dignity as understood by our (western) culture. I hope we consider taking similar steps here in Ireland. From never having seen one here before, in recent months I've noticed an almost ostentatious proliferation of women in full veil in Dublin city. I hope we have the courage to lay down our own marker to those of our Muslim guests who insist on this practice.

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EDIT (October 2012): This is a pretty long thread, but for anyone who's interested in specific detail and pretty focussed discusssion:

- I restate my position at posts 514 (http://www.politics.ie/forum/current-affairs/133610-french-assembly-votes-335-1-ban-full-veil-13.html#post2854772) and 696 (http://www.politics.ie/forum/current-affairs/133610-french-assembly-votes-335-1-ban-full-veil-18.html#post2890339)

- I commence an analysis of the French Assembly report on the full veil at post 751 (http://www.politics.ie/forum/current-affairs/133610-french-assembly-votes-335-1-ban-full-veil-19.html#post2956637) concluding with post no. 792 (http://www.politics.ie/forum/current-affairs/133610-french-assembly-votes-335-1-ban-full-veil-20.html)

- Sondagefaux introduced a discussion of ECHR aspects at post 457 (http://www.politics.ie/forum/current-affairs/133610-french-assembly-votes-335-1-ban-full-veil-12.html#post2852502)
 
Last edited:


papaquebec

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+10
 

Casualbets

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I personally welcome this ban. I agree with the analysis that it is essentially an oppressive tool against women, and that it impinges directly on human dignity as understood by our (western) culture. I hope we consider taking similar steps here in Ireland. From never having seen one here before, in recent months I've noticed an almost ostentatious proliferation of women in full veil in Dublin city. I hope we have the courage to lay down our own marker to those of our Muslim guests who insist on this practice.
Provided a woman is wearing a Veil of her own free volition, I've no problem with it. Isn't it surely more oppressing to force someone not to wear something which they want to?

And furthermore I don't agree with the assertion of our "western" culture. I'm Irish, not western.

I can't see any prospect of such a ban coming into force here - I can't see any political party being willing to even consider such a suggestion.
 

jackryan

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I have mixed feelings on this but have to ask would a place of business, there is a security issue, not putting any ideas into anyones head but it would be a good way to disguise oneself for a robbery!!
 

corelli

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France lawmakers approve ban on full veil
France’s National Assembly on Tuesday backed by a crushing majority a bill banning the wearing of the full face veil in public spaces, a garment which politicians across the political spectrum regard as a symbol of religious extremism.
FT.com / Europe - French lawmakers approve ban on full veil

The FT goes on to report that Belgium and Spain are taking similar moves.

See also: French parliament passes burqa ban - The Irish Times - Tue, Jul 13, 2010

I personally welcome this ban. I agree with the analysis that it is essentially an oppressive tool against women, and that it impinges directly on human dignity as understood by our (western) culture. I hope we consider taking similar steps here in Ireland. From never having seen one here before, in recent months I've noticed an almost ostentatious proliferation of women in full veil in Dublin city. I hope we have the courage to lay down our own marker to those of our Muslim guests who insist on this practice.
By "public spaces" do you know do they mean public offices/state spaces, or public areas, where the public congregate? Is it a complete ban? Just to be clear. The latter might cause them problems before the ECtHR as it would seem, simpliciter, to inhibit freedom of expression.
 

McDave

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Incidentally, I have to take issue with the Irish Times editorial of 12 July (Burqa ban - The Irish Times - Mon, Jul 12, 2010). Not necessarily for it's position mind you, but for its sanctimonious knee-jerk tone in prejudging that the issue is closed from a liberal point of view.

The above opinion piece introduces a piece of legalistic cavilling in asserting that 'Evidence of coercion [of unwilling women] has not been forthcoming'. This effectively (and IMO dishonestly) implies the wearing of the niqab and burqa is entirely a voluntary phenomenon. And the IT's judgemental coup de grace is as follows: 'It is difficult to escape the conclusion that the legislation [...] is largely a cynical attempt to pander to anti-Islamist, xenophobic sentiments'.

I don't think Madame Editor has to dig too deep to understand the reasons why, according to certain extreme tenets, men can dress basically as they please, while women are obliged to conceal practically every part of their identity from the outside world. This practice has no place in western civilisation.
 

Fr. Hank Tree

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Provided a woman is wearing a Veil of her own free volition, I've no problem with it. Isn't it surely more oppressing to force someone not to wear something which they want to?

And furthermore I don't agree with the assertion of our "western" culture. I'm Irish, not western.

I can't see any prospect of such a ban coming into force here - I can't see any political party being willing to even consider such a suggestion.
+1
 

McDave

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By "public spaces" you do know they mean public offices/state spaces, not public areas, where the public congregate, simpliciter. Just to be clear.
I understand what the French are up to. They have to protect whatever legislation they pass from being struck down by their constitution. So they're asserting the ban within "Caesar's Realm" so to speak (officially-controlled spaces).
 

corelli

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I understand what the French are up to. They have to protect whatever legislation they pass from being struck down by their constitution. So they're asserting the ban within "Caesar's Realm" so to speak (officially-controlled spaces).
I actually changed my text as it appears to be a complete ban, rather than what I thought the legislation was originally introduced for, ie, to ban their wearing in public/State offices etc, though I am still not certain. It's most unclear.
 

rockofcashel

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France lawmakers approve ban on full veil
France’s National Assembly on Tuesday backed by a crushing majority a bill banning the wearing of the full face veil in public spaces, a garment which politicians across the political spectrum regard as a symbol of religious extremism.
FT.com / Europe - French lawmakers approve ban on full veil

The FT goes on to report that Belgium and Spain are taking similar moves.

See also: French parliament passes burqa ban - The Irish Times - Tue, Jul 13, 2010

I personally welcome this ban. I agree with the analysis that it is essentially an oppressive tool against women, and that it impinges directly on human dignity as understood by our (western) culture. I hope we consider taking similar steps here in Ireland. From never having seen one here before, in recent months I've noticed an almost ostentatious proliferation of women in full veil in Dublin city. I hope we have the courage to lay down our own marker to those of our Muslim guests who insist on this practice.
as is said above already..

what do you do if people choose to wear the veil ?

How does this decision conform with the following Declaration of the General Assembly of the UN

Article 1

Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right shall include freedom to have a religion or whatever belief of his choice, and freedom, either individually or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in worship, observance, practice and teaching.

No one shall be subject to coercion which would impair his freedom to have a religion or belief of his choice.

Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs may be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health or morals or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others.


The third paragraph is the get out clause here, but is the banning of the hijab or even the burkha NECESSARY to protect public safety, order, health or morals, or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others ?

And, what is banned ?

The Burkha ?
The Hijab ?

or are the following also banned...

The Al-Amira
The Shayla
The Kimar
The Chadoor
The Niqab

???

Where should it all stop.. .

What next, ban hoodies, beanies, peak caps etc etc etc ?
 

McDave

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Provided a woman is wearing a Veil of her own free volition, I've no problem with it. Isn't it surely more oppressing to force someone not to wear something which they want to?

And furthermore I don't agree with the assertion of our "western" culture. I'm Irish, not western.

I can't see any prospect of such a ban coming into force here - I can't see any political party being willing to even consider such a suggestion.
Not to be smart or anything, but I don't think there is any particular universal principle of human dignity emanating from Irish thought - none that I'm aware of, although I stand to be corrected. My assertion thus rests on a European understandings of civilisation (going back to the Reformation, Renaissance and Enlightenment, and possibly the US and French Revolutions - most of which actually bypassed us here in Ireland). If we're going to invoke any universal values in this regard, the European ones are closest to our own experience and environment.

You might be right about the prospects of an Irish ban.
 

Casualbets

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I have mixed feelings on this but have to ask would a place of business, there is a security issue, not putting any ideas into anyones head but it would be a good way to disguise oneself for a robbery!!
That's a fair point - but I'm sure there's sensitive ways to deal with that...
 

Mercurial

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I don't see how the interests of liberalism are served in this particular case by limiting the liberty of women to wear certain items of clothing.

Good intentions, wrong methods.
 

Keith-M

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www.allkindsofeverything.ie
The third paragraph is the get out clause here, but is the banning of the hijab or even the burkha NECESSARY to protect public safety, order, health or morals, or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others ?

And, what is banned ?

The Burkha ?
The Hijab ?

or are the following also banned...

The Al-Amira
The Shayla
The Kimar
The Chadoor
The Niqab

???

Where should it all stop.. .
Well, I'd start with the hucklebuck!
 


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