Funding third level education

lilesosanne

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Funding third level education is forefront in my mind right now because I can't fund my own course or find funding for it.

Does Irish third level funding need to change in line with advances of education provision and if so how.

Academics will kick and scream as their jobs change or disappear, and education becomes more available to everyone by focusing on part time online/distance learning initiatives.

From what I can see there isn't any funding available for online / distant or part time learning in Ireland, is this to make sure that teaching staff keep their jobs or is it because we are so far behind understanding the changing face of education that we just aren't doing anything.

Do student loans level the playing field? What about the after qualifying or dropping out debt?

Should we take on the module where certain fees and maintenance are paid if those careers then payback through providing the at service. This would mean people like Doctors, engineers etc would have to work in the public sector for a set period of time but would leave the without debt.
 


LookWhoItIs

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Funding third level education is forefront in my mind right now because I can't fund my own course or find funding for it.

Does Irish third level funding need to change in line with advances of education provision and if so how.

Academics will kick and scream as their jobs change or disappear, and education becomes more available to everyone by focusing on part time online/distance learning initiatives.

From what I can see there isn't any funding available for online / distant or part time learning in Ireland, is this to make sure that teaching staff keep their jobs or is it because we are so far behind understanding the changing face of education that we just aren't doing anything.

Do student loans level the playing field? What about the after qualifying or dropping out debt?

Should we take on the module where certain fees and maintenance are paid if those careers then payback through providing the at service. This would mean people like Doctors, engineers etc would have to work in the public sector for a set period of time but would leave the without debt.
Is this one of those gofundme pages ? :lol:
 

McTell

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No
Funding third level education is forefront in my mind right now because I can't fund my own course or find funding for it.///

Should we take on the module where certain fees and maintenance are paid if those careers then payback through providing the at service. This would mean people like Doctors, engineers etc would have to work in the public sector for a set period of time but would leave the without debt.

The 6 figure salaries in unis are a basic reason why everything is so expensive for students.

For starters, the idea of means testing parents is wrong, because the student is an adult from age 18, and should be assessed on her/his finances.

Yet another area where the state puts up a lot of money, with almost no say in where it goes. On the salary front, they will point at the UK and expect the same or more. At the end of the day, the subjects, the lecture halls, basic property layouts, ethos, lectuers are all much the same, and they are not re-inventing the wheel.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/dec/09/sussex-university-head-paid-230000-golden-handshake-report
 

stopdoingstuff

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What I am wondering is will technology drive down the cost of third level education.
 

Analyzer

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Funded for the most part by PAYE taxpayer.

And if you don't like paying PAYE & you want your name recognised you can go to Belfield where those in charge will welcome just about any tribunal named Tax Non Domicile wealthy chance and give ypu a building to be called after yourself.

But otherwise as I said, "free" education is paid for by PAYE taxpayers as part of the general scelping working people get from the state.
 

darkhorse

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IMO - online 3rd level education is going to take over traditional Universities sooner or later.
Its going to be cheaper, more convenient and better than traditional blackboard stuff and likely better academically and reputation wise. We have already had the BBC Open University for years laying the groundwork. There will be some real life lab work etc contracted out - but primarily it will be online.
Traditional Universities have priced themselves out of the market due to the excessive salaries they pay to their academic staff.
 
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Many Universities now will record every lecture and make it available to the students to access when and wherever they wish.

What requirement is there for a billion euro campus when you can be at home and attending lectures for a couple of hours each day then get on with your life without spending 3 years in Dublin borrowing to live and getting parents further into debt.

Potentially you are then removing the barriers to entry for all Universities as claiming Maths at UCD can only take 200 applicants is nonsense when the barrier is Bandwidth at 9am when 450 students wish to take part in the lecture. All able to submit questions online which are addressed later.

Course the downside will be that students won't get the opportunity to shag whomever they want and drink themselves into oblivion every week.

Distance Learning followed up by catch up sessions evewry couple on months would become more focuesed with zero barrier to entry.
 

Dame_Enda

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Until recently I supported privatisating them so they could borrow and raise money from the private sector. But I've changed my mind. The reason being that I strongly believe such policies in the US have contributed to the climate of censorship there, as corporations dont want to be associated with controversial debate topics.

I support a student loan system like in Australia where students would only pay it back when they find employment. But I also support an audit of the universities to uncover waste and a crackdown on excessive pay.
 

Maction

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My opinion for what its worth.... 3rd level should be free (or as good as). Forget about the loans etc. etc. It will be cheaper in the long run. Lets move on from the salary discussion with lecturers - that's a nice curve ball thrown to distract the wider issue. Its a societal issue.

If we continue to price working class/coping classes out of the education market, we pay for it in the long run. Its politically destabilising also (look at the US!). Plus, lets be honest, the PAYE tax base is the countrys bread and butter.

IMO, we need to look at our welfare system and really examine why people need such state resources. I know there will always be people who take the p^&s but if we can get our supports right for people who want to really make a go of it (and mum and dad don't earn 100k+), access to good education (3rd level being a primary component) should not be an issue.

Whether we like it or not, most people who are not from stable economic backgrounds do need a helping hand from the state. These potential students should not be put at a disadvantage because of their parents economic status.

It might take a generation or two, put it will be cheaper in the long run.
 

Maction

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I went to Uni. back in the late 90's/early 00's. I'm from rural Ireland so had to move to a city. My parents managed. Fees were effectively nil. I had a p/t job (pulling pints) that helped with the rent.

My parents did not earn much at the time but luckily, myself and my 2 sisters got to go to University. I pay c1.6k p/m in tax/usc now. My 2 sisters the same.

To be honest, in todays context, I'm not so sure my parents would have been able to send all 3 of us to college (all 3 of us - only 4 years age difference between us all).

Admittedly, I spent a fortune doing my Msc. But that was on my back which I have absolutely no problem with (did my Msc while working). My point being this:

The state probably invested c 15/20k in me (4 years doing my Level 8) - the actual sum is open to correction.

Admittedly, my initial salary was nominal when I first went into the work force (probably paid c400/500 p/m in tax/usc
In my late 30s now and on a good salary, paying c1.6k p/m tax/usc. On the pretence that I never get a pay rise again until I retire, my contribution to the states tax coffers estimated as follows (very basic assumptions as outlined)

9years paying c€450 p/m tax/usc - total c€48.6k
c30 years paying c€1.6k p/m tax/usc - total €576k
Total €624k - all for an initial investment of c€20k

At a basic economic level, education probably needs to be assessed on this basis - 'A return on investment over a working life', rather than 00 annual budgetary basis, but I fear we do not have politicians or an electorate who have such foresight.
 
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devoutcapitalist

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Far too many people go to Third Level education these days. There needs to be a greater emphasis on apprenticeships but for some reason apprenticeships are looked down with snobbery by many parents.
 

darkhorse

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Far too many people go to Third Level education these days. There needs to be a greater emphasis on apprenticeships but for some reason apprenticeships are looked down with snobbery by many parents.
Is there something stopping people taking apprenticeships?
I ask only because British Brexit Nobs are objecting so much to so many of their young becoming educated and challenging them.
Hence their idea of replacing the Polish plumber with the English ones.
 

devoutcapitalist

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Is there something stopping people taking apprenticeships?
I ask only because British Brexit Nobs are objecting so much to so many of their young becoming educated and challenging them.
Hence their idea of replacing the Polish plumber with the English ones.
Well there are only 34 recognised apprenticeships in Ireland and let's face reality there is a lot of snobbery attached to doing an apprenticeship from a wide section of Irish society. Young people are influenced by their parents.

Our politicians have a deranged obsession with getting as many people as possible to go to college when quite frankly in many cases they are not suited to going to college.
 

darkhorse

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Well there are only 34 recognised apprenticeships in Ireland and let's face reality there is a lot of snobbery attached to doing an apprenticeship from a wide section of Irish society. Young people are influenced by their parents.

Our politicians have a deranged obsession with getting as many people as possible to go to college when quite frankly in many cases they are not suited to going to college.
Evidence for that?
 

darkhorse

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The drop out rate is enough evidence along with some lecturers stating that the Irish Third Level system has been dumbed down.
A high drop out rate would indicate its being dumbed UP
But you're saying its being dumbed DOWN
So where are your links?
 

devoutcapitalist

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A high drop out rate would indicate its being dumbed UP
But you're saying its being dumbed DOWN
So where are your links?
High drop out rates indicate that many people aren't suited to going to college. The Leaving Cert has long since been dumbed down for instance with grade inflation and students getting points If they fail a higher level subject.

Regarding dumbing down an article from 2010.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/top-foreign-firms-put-off-by-our-dumbed-down-college-courses-26632542.html

Declining standards in Irish Universities.
Irish universities fail to make the top 200 in global rankings

Professor Morgan Kelly in 2014 on declining standards in UCD. Dumbing down warning - Education policy is the real threat | Irish Examiner
 

darkhorse

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High drop out rates indicate that many people aren't suited to going to college. The Leaving Cert has long since been dumbed down for instance with grade inflation and students getting points If they fail a higher level subject.

Regarding dumbing down an article from 2010.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/top-foreign-firms-put-off-by-our-dumbed-down-college-courses-26632542.html

Declining standards in Irish Universities.
Irish universities fail to make the top 200 in global rankings

Professor Morgan Kelly in 2014 on declining standards in UCD. Dumbing down warning - Education policy is the real threat | Irish Examiner

But for every newspaper article that says 3rd level is being dumbed down there are twice as many saying the points are going up and its too difficult to get into college. So all these wanna be plumbers would seem to be over qualified for that job - not that there is anything wrong with being a plumber which is a great job and career,

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/number-of-high-points-courses-reaches-record-high-1.2763664
 


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