Gaddafi on the issue of Israeli settlements. Any lessons to be taken?

roc_

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I was just casting my eye over this thread, and thought I might as well post the following.

Gadaffi speaks frankly to the other Arab countries:

[video=youtube;qFkAY3IJL2k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFkAY3IJL2k[/video]


So, where do Gadaffi's words suggest the resolution of this conflict must therefore lie?

Clearly, his intent is that Israel should be wiped off the map, and a new Arab state take its place.

The alternative, more moderate view is that the parts of the West bank with high concentration of Arabs be handed back again to Jordan, if those Arabs living there will agree to that. With other land swaps.

And a line is drawn that encompasses the major Israeli settlements, and allows Israel "defensible borders" so that she can properly defend herself. (Let's not kid ourselves, Jews are being killed simply for being Jews, and that is getting worse in the last few years, goaded on by many idiots in Ireland I might add...)

Arabs living in this new area of Israel would automatically get full residency, and full citizenship would be granted case by case, dependent on whether they had previous terrorist or other violence against the Jewish state on their record.

Or perhaps people think that the Jews should be put under Muslim rule in Palestine, under a PLO and Hamas coalition, or some such? - Do let us know if you think it should be so.
 


roc_

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And just to try and judge whether the Arabs would accept this or not.

We should recall that up until around 1964, all the Arab nations that constitute the Palestinian leadership were dead set against the Palestinian Arabs being recogised as having a distinct identity. They all said it infringed on their ideal of Pan-Arab nationalism. (We can discern this history in Gadaffi's speech, of course.)

It is absolutely clear from the record that in the period of time from the Versailles conference until the partition debate in the UN, Arab spokesmen and the Palestinian leadership insisted that Palestine was Southern Syria and that to confer independence on the region infringed on the Arab nationalist vision.

And Ahmed Shukeiry, the founder and first head of the PLO among others is on the record even 10 years after that debate insisting in the UN council that "it is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria".

Also some of the leadership of the PLO have put it in the past, "There should be a kind of linkage because Jordanians and Palestinians are considered by the PLO as one people".

And King Hussein of Jordan has said in an interview, "The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan". (It was only in 1988 that the Arab residents of the West Bank were stripped of their Jordanian citizenship by the Jordanian government.)

And even up to present day, when groups like Hamas are addressing Arab audiences, rather than international audiences, this is what they say. - Hamas leadership addressing the Egyptian people (video)

I don't doubt it might be complex. For example, Assads's father is on public record in the mid-70s stating to Arafat that, "... You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Do not forget one thing: there is no Palestinian people, no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria! You are an integral part of the Syrian people and Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the real representatives of the Palestinian people.". (But perhaps seeing as the Assads currently have other issues, it might be an opportune time.)

So sure, we know that in 1964 the PLO decided to adopt a demographic based strategy as a complement to their other activities, revolving around renaming what had been called up to then, "Arab refugees" as "homeless Palestinian people".

And indeed, no one arguing the case for Jewish rights is denying the Palestinian people the identity they adopted. They have every right to call themselves what they like, and Israel has always recognised their claim to nationhood.

But we have to ask ourselves the hard question - might we row back to before 1964, towards resolving the conflict? Hand back most of the West bank and undertake other land swaps with other Arab countries with whom it is possible to maintain diplomatic relations with?

Can we construe from Gadaffi's words, that this would be a more peaceable approach than unconditional withdrawal to the 1967 / 1949 armistice lines?
 

roc_

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Keep the bigger picture in mind. The killings and conflict go way back. Here is one illustrative view of the bigger picture.


 
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roc_

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GDPR

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The rise of the BDS movement coupled the declining power of the United States which if looked at carefully is on the verge of inner collapse will open up a whole new scenario in Palestine. The purpose of the settlements is of course to prevent a Palestinian state from ever happening and it is interesting to see roc_ doesn't seem to have a problem with them. There were alternative locations which would have been a lot less problematic for setting up a Jewish state but the Zionists choose Palestine didn't they despite all the consequences that were obvious in doing so?

The Brother Leader was a brilliant man however he wasn't there taking into account the "Samson doctrine" of Zionism which is basically if it looks like their colonial project is finally done for through Nuclear weaponry they will take the world with them. This always has to be taken on board when discussing the Palestine question.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

https://thecross-roads.org/race-culture-nation/113-the-samson-option-will-israel-nuke-germany-and-iran

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/capsule-review/1992-03-01/samson-option-israels-nuclear-arsenal-and-american-foreign-policy

https://archive.org/details/Sampson_Option
 

roc_

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The rise of the BDS movement coupled the declining power of the United States which if looked at carefully is on the verge of inner collapse will open up a whole new scenario in Palestine...
Possibly. No doubt BDS seek the end of Israel. In nearly the precise same way as Hamas now does. This is clear from their "three tier" strategy:

... "They don't want Israel," Finkelstein declared, "They think they're being very clever. They call it their three tiers... We want the end of the occupation, we want the right of return, and we want equal rights for Arabs in Israel. And they think they are very clever, because they know the result of implementing all three is what? What's the result? You know and I know what's the result: there's no Israel..."

But yes, if the "law-fare" and information war is won by the OIC and their allies on the Left against Israel, and the US abandons them, and the EU increases its attack even more, and other scenarios - yes, it is true, then all that Israel have left to fall back on is their very last resort to defend themselves. The so called "Samson Option".

- Hopefully though it will never ever come to that.
 
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Cdebru

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I was just casting my eye over this thread, and thought I might as well post the following.

Gadaffi speaks frankly to the other Arab countries:

[video=youtube;qFkAY3IJL2k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFkAY3IJL2k[/video]


So, where do Gadaffi's words suggest the resolution of this conflict must therefore lie?

Clearly, his intent is that Israel should be wiped off the map, and a new Arab state take its place.

The alternative, more moderate view is that the parts of the West bank with high concentration of Arabs be handed back again to Jordan, if those Arabs living there will agree to that. With other land swaps.

And a line is drawn that encompasses the major Israeli settlements, and allows Israel "defensible borders" so that she can properly defend herself. (Let's not kid ourselves, Jews are being killed simply for being Jews, and that is getting worse in the last few years, goaded on by many idiots in Ireland I might add...)

Arabs living in this new area of Israel would automatically get full residency, and full citizenship would be granted case by case, dependent on whether they had previous terrorist or other violence against the Jewish state on their record.

Or perhaps people think that the Jews should be put under Muslim rule in Palestine, under a PLO and Hamas coalition, or some such? - Do let us know if you think it should be so.

Clearly he was saying that if the only demand is a return to the 1967 borders then you are defacto accepting the legitimacy of the pre 1967 border as the borders of Israel.

That if you want to make a state out of the Gaza strip and west bank why didn't Jordan and Egypt do that before 1967.


I personally don't think a 2 state solution is going to work, the "palestinian" state is unworkable as a state, I think the only real solution is for the Israelis and the Palestinians to agree to share all the land of Palestine, the occupied lands and the current state of Israel as one state which guarantees the rights of all of it's citizens, as equals, with some kind of power sharing arrangement, with the right to return for Palestinian refugees, and to be compensated for the loss of land, homes etc.
 

roc_

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... There were alternative locations which would have been a lot less problematic for setting up a Jewish state but the Zionists choose Palestine didn't they despite all the consequences that were obvious in doing so?...
That's not wholly true. Palestine was a much different place back then. Many leaders concurred that the Jews should return to Israel. Including the likes of our own Michael Davitt for example (writing in 1903).

The Ottoman census of 1850 counted 350,000 total in the whole region of Palestine (which included present day Jordan of course up until 1923). And of course, Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people where their identity was shaped, and where a not insignificant Jewish presence remained even through all the centuries of their dispersion. The Jews always prayed and hoped for their return to it.
 

roc_

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... the right to return for Palestinian refugees, and to be compensated for the loss of land, homes etc...
There are 10 million or so Palestinian refugees today. And they have been wildly indoctrinated and radicalised. Insight into UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine) activities.

[video=youtube;SnLIzNGb9gI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnLIzNGb9gI[/video]


This goes way back, btw.

Read this excellent article from 1961 - http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1961/10/the-arabs-of-palestine/304203/

Written in 1961: "... The refugees' misery is in the head. They are sick in their minds from a diet of propaganda, official Arab dogma and homemade fantasy, which they have gobbled for nineteen years. Schooled in self-pity, encouraged to believe they are the worlds unique victims of injustice, they have never been allowed to forget the daydream past or to settle for the real future. Since the third Arab-Israel war hardly touched them, they learned nothing from it..."
 
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roc_

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Also, listen to these recent words of this Palestinian moderate, who is working to try and achieve a realistic peace:

"... Three years ago, I went to visit the Palestinian village of Qariut, located between Ramalla and Nablus. The Israeli occupation confiscated their land and established a settlement called Eli. When I left the people in Qariut I asked them once specific question: if the Israelis were to evacuate Eli settlements tomorrow, would you agree to give the land and the houses for your brothers, the refugees? And nobody agreed.

So, if even the Palestinians are not willing to accept this right of return, how can we expect Israelis will do it?..."
 
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Cdebru

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There are 10 million or so Palestinian refugees today. And they have been wildly indoctrinated and radicalised.

[video=youtube;SnLIzNGb9gI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnLIzNGb9gI[/video]


This goes way back, btw.

Read this excellent article from 1961 - http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1961/10/the-arabs-of-palestine/304203/

Written in 1961: "... The refugees' misery is in the head. They are sick in their minds from a diet of propaganda, official Arab dogma and homemade fantasy, which they have gobbled for nineteen years. Schooled in self-pity, encouraged to believe they are the worlds unique victims of injustice, they have never been allowed to forget the daydream past or to settle for the real future. Since the third Arab-Israel war hardly touched them, they learned nothing from it..."
Also, listen to these recent words of this Palestinian:

"... Three years ago, I went to visit the Palestinian village of Qariut, located between Ramalla and Nablus. The Israeli occupation confiscated their land and established a settlement called Eli. When I left the people in Qariut I asked them once specific question: if the Israelis were to evacuate Eli settlements tomorrow, would you agree to give the land and the houses for your brothers, the refugees? And nobody agreed.

So, if even the Palestinians are not willing to accept this right of return, how can we expect Israelis will do it?..."

And they are not going to disappear if you just leave them sitting in refugee camps, so the eventual solution has to involve them as well, otherwise you are leaving a gaping festering sore on your borders which is also destabilising your neighbours as well.

Also a vox pop of a few people in one village is not an accurate reflection of Palestinians as a whole.

Also there are not 10 million refugees there are 7.2million worldwide, but not all of them will return anyway, and some of the refugees are already in the west bank and Gaza,
 

GDPR

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Also, listen to these recent words of this Palestinian moderate, who is working to try and achieve a realistic peace:

"... Three years ago, I went to visit the Palestinian village of Qariut, located between Ramalla and Nablus. The Israeli occupation confiscated their land and established a settlement called Eli. When I left the people in Qariut I asked them once specific question: if the Israelis were to evacuate Eli settlements tomorrow, would you agree to give the land and the houses for your brothers, the refugees? And nobody agreed.

So, if even the Palestinians are not willing to accept this right of return, how can we expect Israelis will do it?..."
What is their name? Are they with an organization?
 

roc_

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...And they are not going to disappear if you just leave them sitting in refugee camps, so the eventual solution has to involve them as well, otherwise you are leaving a gaping festering sore on your borders which is also destabilising your neighbours as well...
Of course not. But why should Israel be the ultimate victim of such a cynical strategy?

It has been the Arab countries that have kept the Palestinians in refugee camps, using them as pawns in an abominable "law-fare" - refusing to resettle any of them in their own countries, turning them into cheap and defenseless labor, feeding them false hopes that they will one day return to the same homes they left 70 years ago in what is now Israel.

Their number has been massively increased. They have been indoctrinated to think a certain way as per that old Atlantic article I linked. (And the video I posted). Those are the facts. So what do you do with those facts.


EDIT And let's get realistic and more clear about what really happened in 1948. Lose the propaganda and slogans ourselves. e.g. https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/israel-and-the-palestinians-1.896017
 

roc_

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Cdebru

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Of course not. But why should Israel be the ultimate victim of such a cynical strategy?

It has been the Arab countries that have kept the Palestinians in refugee camps, using them as pawns in an abominable "law-fare" - refusing to resettle any of them in their own countries, turning them into cheap and defenseless labor, feeding them false hopes that they will one day return to the same homes they left 70 years ago in what is now Israel.

Their number has been massively increased. They have been indoctrinated to think a certain way as per that old Atlantic article I linked. (And the video I posted). Those are the facts. So what do you do with those facts.


EDIT And let's get realistic and more clear about what really happened in 1948. Lose the propaganda and slogans ourselves. e.g. https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/israel-and-the-palestinians-1.896017

Eh because it was the Israelis they were fleeing from into refugee camps, why should Israel think it can displace people and they should become someone elses problem ?

What do you do ? You try and address the issues as to why they are living in camps, and what makes them easy to radicalise, you try and give them a future in a shared homeland, as equal citizens, with a say in their country.

I'm not saying it will be easy, I just don't see the two state as a viable option, and the current situation is just a recipe for continued violence and instability , both for Israel and the Palestinians and it's neighbours.
 

roc_

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Eh because it was the Israelis they were fleeing from into refugee camps, why should Israel think it can displace people and they should become someone elses problem ?
That is simplistic. As per the link to the Irish Times letter I gave above.

But this is a big part of the problem. - It is not only the refugees in thrall to these long heinous lists of "crimes" committed by the Israeli Jews. e.g. We also have:

"Apartheid"
"Ethnic cleansing"
Scheming to "Judaize Jerusalem"
"Crimes against humanity"
Exercising "terrorism"
"Theft of land"
Practices of "discrimination and extremism".

(please ignore title and end of the video linked above. Just observe the Goebbels like repetition of the Arab countries of the above "crimes" in the beginning of it. This is the point I want to illustrate.)

As long as such a narrative is kept up, there is only one "solution" that is ever going to occur. - It is a solution of "retribution" for the above long list of abominable crimes. Retributive justice.
 

Mick Mac

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Keep the bigger picture in mind. The killings and conflict go way back. Here is one illustrative view of the bigger picture.


Its seems the Romans found the secret to peace though banning Jewish customs, slaughtering hundreds of thousands may be a hard sell.
 

GDPR

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Oh, he is obviously an ensnared victim of "Jewish magic" and Witchcraft.
- Witchcraft in the Zionist colonial project. | Political Irish :roll:

Listen, go to hell with your continual poison and insinuation and smears against the Jews and against Israel.
I take it you didn't read the post. It completely destroys any Religious justification for the Zionist colonial project and so is an extremely important matter;

"When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God shall give thee, beware lest thou have a mind to imitate the abominations of those nations. Neither let there be found among you any one that shall expiate his son or daughter, making them to pass through the fire: or that consulteth soothsayers, or observeth dreams and omens, neither let there be any wizard, Nor charmer, nor any one that consulteth pythonic spirits, or fortune tellers, or that seeketh the truth from the dead. For the Lord abhorreth all these things, and for these abominations he will destroy them at thy coming."

Deuteronomy 18:9-11.

This is why I believe that the Zionist colonial project despite it's "Samson Option" doctrine will fail. The Palestinians are either Muslim, Christian or "rational" atheists over whelmingly while as among the Zionists in Palestine all sorts of witchcraft, hocus pocus and black magic is rife. Listen to this interview with a Christian Zionist who did all sorts of things to aid the Zionist colonial project until he found out how common magic is among the Zionists there which caused him to stop helping them even if sadly he remains "Dispensational" in his Theology. Listening to it flushed out the support for Zionism from my sister's soul;

VFTB 215: Dr. Michael Bennett – Jewish Magic – A View from the Bunker
 

Cdebru

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That is simplistic. As per the link to the Irish Times letter I gave above.

But this is a big part of the problem. - It is not only the refugees in thrall to these long heinous lists of "crimes" committed by the Israeli Jews. e.g. We also have:

"Apartheid"
"Ethnic cleansing"
Scheming to "Judaize Jerusalem"
"Crimes against humanity"
Exercising "terrorism"
"Theft of land"
Practices of "discrimination and extremism".

(please ignore title and end of the video linked above. Just observe the Goebbels like repetition of the Arab countries of the above "crimes" in the beginning of it. This is the point I want to illustrate.)

As long as such a narrative is kept up, there is only one "solution" that is ever going to occur. - It is a solution of "retribution" for the above long list of abominable crimes. Retributive justice.
See I think you are expecting the Arab countries and the Palestinians to just forget about everything and say, whatever Israel did in the past is all forgotten about, in the absence of an overall settlement. That is not going to happen, but it can happen I believe in the context of an overall settlement, not an imposed setlement, not a half settlement that leaves Palestinians sitting in refugee camps but allows jews to "return" to a land they have far less connection with the people living in refugee camps have.

You want peace before you agree a peace settlement, that won't happen(obviously you would need short term peace while both sides negotiate, but you are not going to have long term peace and an acceptance of Israel before a settlement)
 

roc_

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... For the Lord abhorreth all these things, and for these abominations he will destroy them at thy coming[/B]."[/url]
Yes, this kind of thing illustrates well my point above about "retributive justice" - - the theory of justice that considers proportionate punishment to be the apt response to "crime."

In this regard I ask myself have you people seriously considered what would balance the scales of justice adequately with respect to the "crimes" they so easily and nearly always superficially repeat and repeat against them?

Then I wonder whether the people on here who take up these slogans with such relish are familiar with the speeches in the Reichstag 90 years ago, and the slogans similarly wielded, about the Jews being "international world swindlers", "convicted scoundrels and budding crooks" desiring to create a "safe haven" in Palestine, removed from the intervention of other states, so they could carry on their dastardly deeds with impunity, and who committed "genocide" during the holocaust of Holodomr and so on and so on.

All building up to an eventual "retributive justice".
 


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