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Gardai evidence in Love and Slurry Murder Trial


Emily Davison

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Jun 9, 2013
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30,269
One cannot have failed to be following the Tipperary Love Triangle Murder case. In the last week we've heard extraordinary testimony, and I don't mean from the widow, but from our finest Boys in Blue and I was wondering what Piesters think of their handling of the crime investigation, the fact they did not find the dead man's van, one Gardai changing his evidence because of a map/aerial shot of the farm that he 'just happened' to 'notice' in the court room coffee shop the other day, following on from watching TV news. This is after Eight Years.

Another investigating Gardai at the murder scene who did not bother to write down a crucial fact like how clean the accused man's hands were in his written notes/evidential file until Two Years after observing what one could only describe as a very crucial fact.

Do Piesters think this sloppy, do they think such sloppiness has the potential to make the jury wonder if the new Gardai evidence has been added later to make a case against an individual stronger.

Clean Hand Evidence Two Years Later

at scene of body find - Independent.ie

Inspector Powell:

Under cross examination …. He accepted that he did not make a statement about what he saw that day, including about the cleanliness of the accused's hands, until more than two years later and he made no notes at the time.
 


Emily Davison

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Jun 9, 2013
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Aerial Footage Eight Years Later

about location of body after watching TV news broadcast - Independent.ie

Garda Finnane


A garda involved in the search for Bobby Ryan eight years ago has said he became "unhappy" with where he thought the missing man's body was found, after watching a television news broadcast.
told defence counsel Bernard Condon SC that he took part in a search of the lands at Fawnagowan in June 2011 but found nothing of interest to what was then a missing person investigation.
On Monday this week he was having coffee with garda colleagues in the court building when he asked Sergeant Cathal Godfrey if he could see an aerial photograph of the farm.

He told Mr Condon that he asked to see the photograph because he wasn't happy with what he previously thought was the location of where the body was found.

He had thought the body was found in an open slurry pit behind one of the sheds but became "unhappy" with this after seeing footage on television news showing the body to have been found in an underground tank in a different area.

The witness said that he became mistaken about the location of the body because someone in the investigation team told him it was found in a slurry tank and he presumed that referred to the large slurry pit.

He had not seen the run-off tank from the dairy farm where the body was actually found before it was pointed out to him on the aerial photograph on Monday of this week.

When Gda Finnane saw the correct location of the body he remembered seeing between 10 and 15 round bales of silage covered in black plastic in that location. He said he has not discussed his evidence with anyone else.

Mr Condon asked if the witness agrees that it is inappropriate for gardaí to discuss their statements in advance of giving evidence in a trial.

Gda Finnane said it would not be correct but added that gardaí were not discussing their evidence, they were looking at a photograph. "There wasn't anything else discussed," he said. He also said the search was carried out eight years ago and seeing the photograph helped put things in perspective.

Gda Finnane rejected a suggestion by counsel that he is "extraordinarily confused" about the location of the hay bales and denied that he saw some "advantage" to himself in suggesting bales were placed in the area of the tank.
 

Fr. Ted Crilly

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Jul 11, 2018
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5,102
One cannot have failed to be following the Tipperary Love Triangle Murder case. In the last week we've heard extraordinary testimony, and I don't mean from the widow, but from our finest Boys in Blue and I was wondering what Piesters think of their handling of the crime investigation, the fact they did not find the dead man's van, one Gardai changing his evidence because of a map/aerial shot of the farm that he 'just happened' to 'notice' in the court room coffee shop the other day, following on from watching TV news. This is after Eight Years.

Another investigating Gardai at the murder scene who did not bother to write down a crucial fact like how clean the accused man's hands were in his written notes/evidential file until Two Years after observing what one could only describe as a very crucial fact.

Do Piesters think this sloppy, do they think such sloppiness has the potential to make the jury wonder if the Gardai evidence is designed to fit the accused as guilty after the fact.

Clean Hand Evidence Two Years Later

at scene of body find - Independent.ie

Inspector Powell:

Under cross examination …. He accepted that he did not make a statement about what he saw that day, including about the cleanliness of the accused's hands, until more than two years later and he made no notes at the time.
Exactly what members of AGS did in the Jobstown trial.
Forged notes, changing evidence, lying under oath etc etc...

Did you open a thread about that trial or is proper justice only for the ones you see fit?
 

Aristodemus

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Plod obviously did not treat this case with the seriousnes it warranted. They were pretty casual about the original search and did not spend a lot of time or effort looking for this guy subsequently. Probably drew conclusions from local gossip, which would not be the first time this happened.
I'm reminded of the situation about 15 years ago when a young man went missing in Nassau Street in Dublin. A search was supposedly carried out and no trace of the person was found. A number of days later the man's body turned up in an alleyway off Wicklow Street. When queried as to how an extensive search of the area for the man had failed to find him less than 100 yards from where he disappeared one cop allegedly replied "we may as well have looked for him in Wicklow as Wicklow Street."
 

Emily Davison

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Exactly what members of AGS did in the Jobstown trial.
Forged notes, changing evidence, lying under oath etc etc...

Did you open a thread about that trial or is proper justice only for the ones you see fit?
Did you see my posts in the Jobstown trial. Thanks to Making Waves I learnt a lot about how policing in Ireland is in a sorry state. And I said so on that thread. So leave it out.
 

Finbar10

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Dec 3, 2008
Messages
2,424
Seems like good strategy from the defence team. Plenty of high-profile past cases at this point where the best spin that could be put on Garda actions was at minimum incompetence/bone laziness/amateurishness and sometimes more likely something more malign (not that there ever tends to be consequences). Am not sure what the story is here but unfortunately seems like a potentially fruitful avenue for the defence.
 

Levellers

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The Guards are clearly making up evidence to fit their theory.

It's odds on Quirke did for Ryan but the Gardai inquiry was badly mishandled and he will probably be acquitted.
 

Herr Rommel

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Firstly the title of this thread is excellent and secondly what we are seeing only reinforces my low view of the Gardaì.
 

Finbar10

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The Guards are clearly making up evidence to fit their theory.

It's odds on Quirke did for Ryan but the Gardai inquiry was badly mishandled and he will probably be acquitted.
Yeah, long history of that by the Gardaí. The infamous Cork Frank Flannery case in the 90s comes to mind. That was a bit of a media circus (of course, I am not drawing any direct parallels or implications to the current case apart from saying there's a long history of police incompetence). Two guys in a Cork property mysteriously vanish. Only after the third vanishes do the Gardaí become suspicious. Then some body parts are discovered in local woodlands. Suspicion falls on another guy, Frank Flannery, living in the same property. His nephew even testifies how he described killing the men and dismembering their bodies. Of course, the local plod in charge of the case gets a bit creative and withholds a bunch of evidence from the defence so the judge throws out the case (Flannery did do himself in a few years after that so no danger of me defaming him either here).
 

Round tower

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Messages
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Aerial Footage Eight Years Later

about location of body after watching TV news broadcast - Independent.ie

Garda Finnane


A garda involved in the search for Bobby Ryan eight years ago has said he became "unhappy" with where he thought the missing man's body was found, after watching a television news broadcast.
told defence counsel Bernard Condon SC that he took part in a search of the lands at Fawnagowan in June 2011 but found nothing of interest to what was then a missing person investigation.
On Monday this week he was having coffee with garda colleagues in the court building when he asked Sergeant Cathal Godfrey if he could see an aerial photograph of the farm.

He told Mr Condon that he asked to see the photograph because he wasn't happy with what he previously thought was the location of where the body was found.

He had thought the body was found in an open slurry pit behind one of the sheds but became "unhappy" with this after seeing footage on television news showing the body to have been found in an underground tank in a different area.

The witness said that he became mistaken about the location of the body because someone in the investigation team told him it was found in a slurry tank and he presumed that referred to the large slurry pit.

He had not seen the run-off tank from the dairy farm where the body was actually found before it was pointed out to him on the aerial photograph on Monday of this week.

When Gda Finnane saw the correct location of the body he remembered seeing between 10 and 15 round bales of silage covered in black plastic in that location. He said he has not discussed his evidence with anyone else.

Mr Condon asked if the witness agrees that it is inappropriate for gardaí to discuss their statements in advance of giving evidence in a trial.

Gda Finnane said it would not be correct but added that gardaí were not discussing their evidence, they were looking at a photograph. "There wasn't anything else discussed," he said. He also said the search was carried out eight years ago and seeing the photograph helped put things in perspective.

Gda Finnane rejected a suggestion by counsel that he is "extraordinarily confused" about the location of the hay bales and denied that he saw some "advantage" to himself in suggesting bales were placed in the area of the tank.
Don't see anyhing wrong there, that he must have seen an open slurry tank when they searched the land, when he saw an aerial photo of where the tank waas hr remembered that their was round bales in that spot. Which suggestss that the bales was placed their to conceal that their was an underground tank there, a round bale is not something a person can move by hand.
I wwould agree that it was strange for the Gaurd not to mention in his notes that the accused hands appeared very clean.
 

Betson

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Plod obviously did not treat this case with the seriousnes it warranted. They were pretty casual about the original search and did not spend a lot of time or effort looking for this guy subsequently. Probably drew conclusions from local gossip, which would not be the first time this happened.
Certainty not the first time they botched search , one of the most incompetent was I think in Offaly a couple of years back , the case was profiled in one of those TV3 crime documentaries.

A young woman went missing in the area as had her boyfriend at the same time , the Mother suspected something was a miss straight away and rang the guards and said something has happened to her daughter but the guards reckoned she just ran off with the boyfriend , but to placate the mother they gained entry to his one room apartment in the town and searched it and came back and said they found nothing.

After a few days there was still no sign of either them and the family was putting pressure on the guards to do something, Gardai then received info that the boyfriend had a violent past and realized they should be taking this case more seriously , they went back to his flat to do a further search and subsequently found the body of the woman under the mattress of the bed , she had been murdered and he had scarpered off to London , later giving himself up.

How did they not find the body in the search of a one room flat the first time around? Obviously a very careless first search.
 

The OD

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Is anyone surprised?
 

Emily Davison

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The Gardaí didn’t bother searching Mary’s house for Bobby. And the state pathologist couldn’t be bothered to travel to examine the body. He in fact seems to be refusing to go to court.

s house, court hears - Independent.ie

To their credit, the Gardaí decided to search her house two years later. Well done our finest in blue.
 

petaljam

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Nov 23, 2012
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The Gardaí didn’t bother searching Mary’s house for Bobby. And the state pathologist couldn’t be bothered to travel to examine the body. He in fact seems to be refusing to go to court.

s house, court hears - Independent.ie

To their credit, the Gardaí decided to search her house two years later. Well done our finest in blue.
Yeah I saw that about the State Pathologist refusing to attend. How can that even happen? He just decides not to bother his arse about a dead body? Surely that deserves a professional sanction of some sort?
 

Baron von Biffo

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The last time I reported a potentially libellous post I earned a little tantrum from a mod so I don't use the report function any more. It is worth pointing out though, that this thread is peppered with defamatory comments and that members who quote them are as much at risk as those who wrote them of finding themselves in an expensive predicament.
 

Emily Davison

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Yeah I saw that about the State Pathologist refusing to attend. How can that even happen? He just decides not to bother his arse about a dead body? Surely that deserves a professional sanction of some sort?
It’s absolutely amazing to me, and baffling. And the Garda tried to say he didn’t know if he’d come to court, despite having an email saying he wasn’t.

This reminds me of the ST du Plantier investigation which was a shambles.
 

redneck

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The Gardai did ok in this case, it was the recent "Hutch trial" at Special criminal court that was bizarre and incompetant in my view. Why should prosecution depend on one Garda's evidence. What happened if a prosecuting Garda were to die of say a car accident or anything. Would all cases be not judged worthy of prosecution.
Regarding this case, well imho, the evidence is overwhelming. Regardless of what the Gardai did or did'nt do.
They could have examined the Ryan van for fingerprints though. Because if Quirke's fingerprints were found on the steering wheel, well it would have been a sure fire murder investigation from the get go. But strange to me that Mr Ryan's van was not dusted for evidence. Anyway it was apalling behaviour by all parties really- Mrs Lowery, Mr Quirke and the hapless Mr Ryan. They were a disgrace imho.
 
Last edited:

good dog

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Don't see anyhing wrong there, that he must have seen an open slurry tank when they searched the land, when he saw an aerial photo of where the tank waas hr remembered that their was round bales in that spot. Which suggestss that the bales was placed their to conceal that their was an underground tank there, a round bale is not something a person can move by hand.
I wwould agree that it was strange for the Gaurd not to mention in his notes that the accused hands appeared very clean.
He was taking water from a tank. Not a dirty job.

He could have been wearing gloves or washed his hands while waiting for the police. If my hands are dirty I wash them.
 

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