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Geert Wilders goes on trial


johntrenchard

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Dutch Anti-Islamic Politician Wilders Stands Trial for Insulting Muslims - Bloomberg



Geert Wilders, a Dutch political party leader who has agreed to support the first minority government in the country since World War II, went on trial in Amsterdam today for inciting hatred and insulting Muslims.

“With me, the freedom of speech of many, many Dutchmen is on trial,” Wilders told Presiding Judge Jan Moors at the start of the seven-day trial. “I’ve said everything I have said and won’t take a word of that back.” The head of the Freedom Party appeared in the Amsterdam District Court accompanied by his lawyer Bram Moszkowicz.

Wilders, 47, is prosecuted for calling the Koran “fascist” and comparing it to Adolf Hitler’s book Mein Kampf in a 2007 Dutch newspaper editorial, which led to complaints. A year later, he released his movie “Fitna,” in which he calls on Muslims to rip out “hate-preaching” verses from the book.
 


Chi019

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The Dutch prosecutors recommended dropping this, but political pressure made it go ahead. Also, there are serious questions about integration.

EuropeNews: What is the conclusion on your research? Is the integration of people of Muslim heritage into Western societies possible?

Nicolai Sennels: I would say that the optimists, the people who say that integration is possible, carry a very great responsibility. There is a very great risk that they are selling us hope, a dream, that has no foundation in reality. This means that they will be the ones who are responsible for Europe looking away from and not addressing its problems until it is too late.

There is simply no research in Europe that supports the optimists’ view. On the contrary, all the research that we have on integration of Muslims in Western societies shows that we are continuing to head in the wrong direction. So I don’t know how these optimists come to their conclusion. Maybe it is a vain and childish hope that everything will turn out well, just like in the fairy tales. Or maybe it is a pseudo-Darwinistic idea that everything will develop in a positive direction. One thing is for sure: they don’t base their judgments on facts.

Of course there are exceptions but for the largest part integration to the necessary degree of Muslims is not possible. Clever and compassionate people are working all over Europe on the problem, and they have spent billions of Euros on the project, yet, the problems still continue to grow.

The psychological explanation is actually simple. The Muslim and the Western cultures are fundamentally very different. This means Muslims need to undergo very big changes in their identity and values to be able to accept the values of Western societies. Changing basic structures in one’s personality is a very demanding psychological and emotional process. Apparently very few Muslims feel motivated to do so. I only know a few who managed, but I also know that it was a long and exhausting struggle on an inner level for them and that they often pay a high personal price on the outer level because their Muslim friends and families despise and/or disown them for leaving their culture.
http://theopinionator.typepad.com/my_weblog/2010/04/danish-psychologist-finds-integration-of-muslims-in-western-societies-not-possible.html
 

johntrenchard

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The Dutch prosecutors recommended dropping this, but political pressure made it go ahead. It is a disgrace that he's being prosecuted.
Yes , i notice from story that the Court of Appeals overturned that recommendation.

I wonder if there's a live feed of this? Or a live blog from one of the journos attending? This could be a fascinating trial.
 

johntrenchard

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The Dutch prosecutors recommended dropping this, but political pressure made it go ahead. Also, there are serious questions about integration.



TheOPINIONATOR: Danish Psychologist Finds Integration of Muslims in Western Societies NOT Possible
interesting link.

same thing is happening in northern England - i think it might have been C4 or BBC documentary a few years ago , about Bradford. That town is now segregated almost to Belfast levels - with a Muslim half of town and a non-Muslim half. It's also happened in a few other places, but Bradford is the most extreme.
 

Thac0man

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Gert Wilders is going to have a field day. Its more than Wilders on trial here, multi-culturalism, tolerance and freedom of speech are in the dock too.
 

Rep_of_pals

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Convictions for discriminatory remarks are frequent in the Netherlands, but penalties are rarely greater than a small fine.

Prosecutors were initially reluctant to bring Wilders’ case to court, saying his remarks appeared directed toward Islam as an ideology rather than intended to insult Muslims as a group.

But they were eventually ordered to do so by a judge.

Prosecutors will not rule out dropping charges or asking for no penalty at all when the trial comes to the sentencing phase. A verdict is expected on November 4.
Read more: Wilders' 'terrible day' starts with hate trial | Irish Examiner
 

johntrenchard

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Gert Wilders is going to have a field day. Its more than Wilders on trial here, multi-culturalism, tolerance and freedom of speech are in the dock too.
i find it somewhat ironic that Wilders has to have 24x7 police protection because of death threats.

Why aren't the people issueing death threats on trial?
 
J

john moriarty

Would be multi-culturally
awkward.

+ And before anyone jumps all over
that^ comment I'd like to say that
whomsoever manages to pollute the
Irish gene pool is all aces in my book.
 
Last edited:

Thac0man

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When I said Wilders was going to have a field day I may have underestimated him. I had assumed he would use the trial as a soapbox to challange the views that oppose him or are trying to keep him quiet. But it seems he is going to keep quiet instead:

BBC News - Dutch anti-Islam MP Geert Wilders goes on trial

To quote:
His lawyer, Bram Moszkowicz, then told the presiding judge that Mr Wilders would thereafter exercise his right to silence and not answer questions during the trial.
It looks very like Wilders is seriously courting jail time. That ups the ante considerably and that may suit Wilders just fine. Going to jail may be the best outcome from Wilders as it would illustrate the extent to which what he claims is freedom of speech is denied under state bias.

That the court is an instrument of bias is already being established, not only by Wilders advocate but rather unwisely by the presiding Judge himself:

When presiding judge Jan Moors said it appeared Mr Wilders was "avoiding discussion" Mr Moszkowicz accused him of bias and moved to have him substituted, causing the trial to be adjourned.
I think its fair to say that if Wilders wanted a discussion he could engage in one without being dragged into court and having the threat of jail hung over his heard. In the absense of Wilders saying anything and with the very real prospect of jail or a hefty fine in the near future, the focus will be entirely on the prosecution case or more accuratly the justification for it.

The court case may develop as a public trial of the prosectutions views as opposed to Wilders. It seems Wilders is testing the system, not the other way around.
 

johntrenchard

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woaah.. that IS interesting. nice catch Thac0man.

certainly looks as if Wilders wants to be sentenced and go to jail.
 

Twin Towers

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woaah.. that IS interesting. nice catch Thac0man.

certainly looks as if Wilders wants to be sentenced and go to jail.
So the Dutch could have their new PM as a prisoner of conscience in one of their jails or he could leave jail to become Prime Minister.
Wilders is simply the most important European alive today
 

F.U.B.A.R

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Gert Wilders is going to have a field day. Its more than Wilders on trial here, multi-culturalism, tolerance and freedom of speech are in the dock too.
I followed this very closely. If this man loses, it will be equivalent of Hitler winning.
 

Thac0man

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I followed this very closely. If this man loses, it will be equivalent of Hitler winning.
Without falling foul of godwins law, the strategic comparison is there alright. Wilders can't really lose. Now his detractors have him where they want him, but how can they win in a way that does not reinforce Wilders?

All they can do to avoid making a martyr of him is hand down a fine. But that only prolongs the inevitable. Wilders won't pay and will hence go to jail anyway. Should his conviction bar him from office, his enemies in the establishment have only further served to illustrate Wilders claims that freedom of speech, and more importantly democracy itself, is being undermined.

The only people who will cheer Wilders going to jail are Wilders, his supporters and short sighted idiots.
 

Sync

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Yes FUBAR, Geert Wilder getting convicted inciting hatred would be totally analogous with Adolf Hitler winning WW2 and finishing his job of exterminating the Jews/gypsies/gays. I think you’re the smartest person on the board.

The court system seems bizarre. If a defendant decides he’s not going to speak, then that’s his right. The idea that its fine for him to address the court, then refuse to answer future questions is ridiculous. As mentioned, if he’s convicted then he should get jail time. He’s said clearly he’d do it again, which seems a stupid thing to say in the opening section of a trial.

That being said, what he’s come up with doesn’t seem that extreme to me, we see equally ludicrous stuff on this board frequently. The FOS laws in the Netherlands seem excessively strict. I'm just not sure what the goal is here. Do they think Wilders will shut up? He won't. Do they think this will make the concerns held by a minority of the Dutch go away? It won't.
 

PAD1OH

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I find it funny when someone tries to cry about freedom of speech and expression when they are defending themselves after trying to limit someone else's freedom of speech/expression.

It's hypocrisy.

Although, I don't think he should go to jail.
 

F.U.B.A.R

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Yes FUBAR, Geert Wilder getting convicted inciting hatred would be totally analogous with Adolf Hitler winning WW2 and finishing his job of exterminating the Jews/gypsies/gays. I think you’re the smartest person on the board.

The court system seems bizarre. If a defendant decides he’s not going to speak, then that’s his right. The idea that its fine for him to address the court, then refuse to answer future questions is ridiculous. As mentioned, if he’s convicted then he should get jail time. He’s said clearly he’d do it again, which seems a stupid thing to say in the opening section of a trial.

That being said, what he’s come up with doesn’t seem that extreme to me, we see equally ludicrous stuff on this board frequently. The FOS laws in the Netherlands seem excessively strict. I'm just not sure what the goal is here. Do they think Wilders will shut up? He won't. Do they think this will make the concerns held by a minority of the Dutch go away? It won't.
A minority you say, im unsure. Apparently, the country is divided, indicating a 50-50 ish split. Eitherway, the reason its not an overwhelming majority is ignorance. The same way in this country, people dont know politics, if they did... leinster house would be ablaze, cowen and co would be hanging from the street-lights. Most people dont pay close attention to problems associated with muslim integration and the intolerance that comes from most muslims, if they did this farce of a trial wouldnt even be taking place.
 

Sync

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Funnily enough I've more of an issue with morons who talk about setting fire to Leinster House than I do the Muslim couple living 2 doors down.
 

F.U.B.A.R

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Funnily enough I've more of an issue with morons who talk about setting fire to Leinster House than I do the Muslim couple living 2 doors down.
What a sad person you are. Politicians who take disgusting salaries from the public, while they oversee the destruction of the country, inflict the financial hardship on a generation, and you see setting a public building ablaze in protest as wrong, yet tell the muslim couple next door the koran is full of crap and they may threaten to behead you, and this is acceptable? One action seems a little over the top to the other dont ya think? :rolleyes:
 

Dr Pat

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Funnily enough I've more of an issue with morons who talk about setting fire to Leinster House than I do the Muslim couple living 2 doors down.
What relevance has that to Wilders' trial?
 

eyelight

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Geert Wilders makes many valid points about Muslims, the Islamification of Europe etc, but I do believe he has a hidden agenda.

He spent some years living on a kibbutz in Israel, and seems to be nothing more than a Zionist agent, stirring up hatred.
 

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