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German Foreign Ministry up to their neck in the Holocaust


Magror14

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Seems that the view that the German foreign ministry was the "innocent" arm of the Nazi German government during the holocaust years has just taken a beating. The Irish Times has a article today on the publication of a report commissioned by Joschka Fischer.

German diplomats 'complicit in Holocaust' - The Irish Times - Mon, Oct 25, 2010

Without having read the report I still think there were huge numbers of diplomats (and indeed civil servants) in the German government who were not Nazis but simply had too much at stake to be in a position to do anything useful to resist.
 


Cassandra Syndrome

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They all knew exactly what was going on. Even before WW2, they were purging Jewish people out of their homes and whitewashing their businesses. Hitler was democratically elected by 32% of the population in 1932 even after writing Mein Kampf. Its not like he took them all by surprise as an unknown in a military coup or something.

The German natives appeared happy enough under his command in the 30s and seemed to be in favour of his need for more space.
 

Magror14

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One of the first things that Hitler did was to abolish the the free press. He was then in a position to create a false reality for the German people who at that point in their history were particularly malleable. The vast majority of Germans knew that the Jews were being resettled and persecuted but I would say that only a small minority actually knew they were being exterminated.

The Germans back then were about the same as we are today about the various genocidal programs going on around the world. We watch TV and click the button when a boring documentary about a foreign country comes on. Governments can do a lot of bad things when you have such an apathetic population as us.
 

McDave

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Seems that the view that the German foreign ministry was the "innocent" arm of the Nazi German government during the holocaust years has just taken a beating. The Irish Times has a article today on the publication of a report commissioned by Joschka Fischer.

German diplomats 'complicit in Holocaust' - The Irish Times - Mon, Oct 25, 2010

Without having read the report I still think there were huge numbers of diplomats (and indeed civil servants) in the German government who were not Nazis but simply had too much at stake to be in a position to do anything useful to resist.
Many Nazis were utterly unrepentant after the war. I remember an interview on "The World at War" with the truly odious army officer Otto Remer [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Ernst_Remer"]Otto Ernst Remer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-2004-0330-500,_Otto_Ernst_Remer.jpg" class="image"><img alt="Bundesarchiv Bild 183-2004-0330-500, Otto Ernst Remer.jpg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-2004-0330-500%2C_Otto_Ernst_Remer.jpg/200px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-2004-0330-500%2C_Otto_Ernst_Remer.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/c/c9/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-2004-0330-500%2C_Otto_Ernst_Remer.jpg/200px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-2004-0330-500%2C_Otto_Ernst_Remer.jpg[/ame] who left no doubt about his admiration for Hitler and that given the chance he would have done the same thing all over again.

As for the Foreign Office, the Foreign Minister (Ribbentrop) was hanged at Nuremburg. There's no doubt many of the Foreign Office officials were a full part of Nazi war policy. As for widespread complicity in the Holocaust, I have to admit it's news to me. But clearly it wasn't to Joshka Fischer and many others in Germany who had knowledge or experience to the contrary.
 
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soubresauts

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Many Nazis were utterly unrepentant after the war...
It is disturbing to see how many ex-Nazis assumed powerful positions after the war (some of them after having served sentences for war crimes). What's more, they were at the root of the EU in the 1950s and have held a large measure of control of the expanding community ever since. Details here.

About The Kindly Ones by Littell,
Probably one of the most disturbing books I've read.
From reading the review I get the impression that the novel matches fairly closely the non-fiction Hitler's Willing Executioners by Goldhagen, certainly one of the most disturbing books I've read. The latter book is bolstered by many photographs...
 

Magror14

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A propos of nothing as they say..My father stayed at the Irish College in Rome in 1946. He said there a bunch of Germans staying there whom he said were former SS men on the run. Dunno whether to believe him.
 

ne0ica

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Seems that the view that the German foreign ministry was the "innocent" arm of the Nazi German government during the holocaust years has just taken a beating. The Irish Times has a article today on the publication of a report commissioned by Joschka Fischer.

German diplomats 'complicit in Holocaust' - The Irish Times - Mon, Oct 25, 2010

Without having read the report I still think there were huge numbers of diplomats (and indeed civil servants) in the German government who were not Nazis but simply had too much at stake to be in a position to do anything useful to resist.
Nothing really new here. Most historians were aware of this already. Ribbentrop was hanged for his simplicity in war crimes.
 

McDave

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It is disturbing to see how many ex-Nazis assumed powerful positions after the war (some of them after having served sentences for war crimes). What's more, they were at the root of the EU in the 1950s and have held a large measure of control of the expanding community ever since. Details here.
I remember that link popped up during the Lisbon 2 campaign, and I think I was rather scathing about it. I'm a bit suspicious of stuff that appears on the web, especially from those run by the authors. On something like this, I'd rather be introduced to a controversial thesis by something a bit more peer-reviewed/academic. Any sources you might recommend soubresaults?
 

McDave

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A propos of nothing as they say..My father stayed at the Irish College in Rome in 1946. He said there a bunch of Germans staying there whom he said were former SS men on the run. Dunno whether to believe him.
It's fairly common knowledge [or allegement!!!!] that Nazis were routed through Italy/Rome after the war. [It's how Hitler ultimately made it to Paraguay! :D]

Ask your Dad for details, and report back. It's the kind of primary source dynamite one never really gets on P.ie!
 

soubresauts

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I remember that link popped up during the Lisbon 2 campaign, and I think I was rather scathing about it. I'm a bit suspicious of stuff that appears on the web, especially from those run by the authors. On something like this, I'd rather be introduced to a controversial thesis by something a bit more peer-reviewed/academic. Any sources you might recommend soubresaults?
I don't think there's any serious dispute about the post-war activities of Nazis such as Hallstein, Ter Meer and the others named in the link. They dominated the economic reorganization of Europe in the 1950s. Some of them were convicted of war crimes at Nuremberg and others were acquitted.

The simple fact is that they shouldn't have been allowed to assume any powerful position in the post-war era.

There's quite enough evidence in this online archive of the Nuremberg Tribunal. For making that archive available, Matthias Rath and his associates deserve our thanks and praise (see this). They have made many other useful documents and information available online. I don't think they should be ignored.

There is no doubt that Rath is much hated in some circles (and most of the media) but we shouldn't lose sight of the important stuff. Some people find Rath's self-justification too much to take, but it strikes me as being coherent.
 

A Time for Every Purpose

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Nothing really new here. Most historians were aware of this already. Ribbentrop was hanged for his simplicity in war crimes.
neoica may I ..complicity, not simplicity.

'Albert Speer ,his battle with Truth' ,by Gitta Sereny.
A wonderful, very readable book which deals not only with facts I never knew about the War, but the psychology of Nazis.

A. Speer being Hitlers Architect.
 

McDave

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I don't think there's any serious dispute about the post-war activities of Nazis such as Hallstein, Ter Meer and the others named in the link. They dominated the economic reorganization of Europe in the 1950s. Some of them were convicted of war crimes at Nuremberg and others were acquitted.

The simple fact is that they shouldn't have been allowed to assume any powerful position in the post-war era.

There's quite enough evidence in this online archive of the Nuremberg Tribunal. For making that archive available, Matthias Rath and his associates deserve our thanks and praise (see this). They have made many other useful documents and information available online. I don't think they should be ignored.

There is no doubt that Rath is much hated in some circles (and most of the media) but we shouldn't lose sight of the important stuff. Some people find Rath's self-justification too much to take, but it strikes me as being coherent.
Hold your horses. Your Nuremburg link is to something called "Nuremberg Tribunal Against the Oil and Drug Cartel" from an organisation called "Profit over life". And the endorsement at Profit Over Life | The Nuremberg Pharma Tribunal | www.pharma-over-life.org is of Rath by "Profit over life".

Your additional information is essentially circular. I don't accept this kind of stuff at face value. That's why I asked for peer-reviewed sources. I appreciate it might be a bit laborious to find academic verification. But for the kinds of claims you're making I think you need to be a good deal more specific. For instance a lot of Germans were card-carrying Nazis, but not all were war criminals. Many stayed behind in Germany during the Nazi era, compromising themselves in the process, but not necessarily endorsing Nazi crimes. As for Hallstein, his Wikipedia entry provides no evidence of criminality: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Hallstein"]Walter Hallstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_B_145_Bild-F028459-0019,_Robert-Schuman-Preis,_Verleihung_an_Walter_Hallstein.jpg" class="image" title="Walter Hallstein"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Bundesarchiv_B_145_Bild-F028459-0019%2C_Robert-Schuman-Preis%2C_Verleihung_an_Walter_Hallstein.jpg/225px-Bundesarchiv_B_145_Bild-F028459-0019%2C_Robert-Schuman-Preis%2C_Verleihung_an_Walter_Hallstein.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/d/d7/Bundesarchiv_B_145_Bild-F028459-0019%2C_Robert-Schuman-Preis%2C_Verleihung_an_Walter_Hallstein.jpg/225px-Bundesarchiv_B_145_Bild-F028459-0019%2C_Robert-Schuman-Preis%2C_Verleihung_an_Walter_Hallstein.jpg[/ame]

And I don't see what Ter Meer has to do with the EU: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_ter_Meer"]Fritz ter Meer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Ter_Meer.jpg" class="image" title="Fritz ter Meer"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Ter_Meer.jpg/225px-Ter_Meer.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/7/7b/Ter_Meer.jpg/225px-Ter_Meer.jpg[/ame]

As for Rath himself, check out his entry in Wikipedia: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthias_Rath"]Matthias Rath - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame].

He sounds like a bit of a sales merchant to me, and not a little eccentric.
 

Cruimh

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A propos of nothing as they say..My father stayed at the Irish College in Rome in 1946. He said there a bunch of Germans staying there whom he said were former SS men on the run. Dunno whether to believe him.
Artukovic was hidden in a Dublin Nunnery after the war after being smuggled out of Croatia by Catholic priests - so it's entirely believable.
 

A Time for Every Purpose

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Evil is really the inability to See your own evil, a loss of consience.
It is not simply Doing bad deeds,but the total inablity to see ,to admit to them.
Nazis in Germany were aided and abetted by many Jews,
wonder when they will make a film etc about that ?

It makes me wonder if hitler could ever have done what he did without
the aid of the Zionists ,who did not under any circumstances want Jewish assimilation ,and collaborated with the Nazis to prevent it.
A very infomative book on this is ,The Holocaust Violence' ,
by Harun Yahya.
Harun Yahya is a Moslem scholar,and so pro- Islam ,but his facts cannot be refuted on this NAZI /Zionist collaboration.
 

Magror14

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Evil is really the inability to See your own evil, a loss of consience.
It is not simply Doing bad deeds,but the total inablity to see ,to admit to them.
Nazis in Germany were aided and abetted by many Jews,
wonder when they will make a film etc about that ?

It makes me wonder if hitler could ever have done what he did without
the aid of the Zionists ,who did not under any circumstances want Jewish assimilation ,and collaborated with the Nazis to prevent it.
A very infomative book on this is ,The Holocaust Violence' ,
by Harun Yahya.
Harun Yahya is a Moslem scholar,and so pro- Islam ,but his facts cannot be refuted on this NAZI /Zionist collaboration.
If its Kapos you are referring to they collaborated to save their own lives. Their use is well documented. The Nazis not only exterminated the Jews but their system robbed them of their dignity and self respect. If a system puts people into positions where they can act in no other way except one that is unacceptable you don't blame the people you blame the system.
 

soubresauts

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Hold your horses. Your Nuremburg link is to something called "Nuremberg Tribunal Against the Oil and Drug Cartel" from an organisation called "Profit over life". And the endorsement at Profit Over Life | The Nuremberg Pharma Tribunal | www.pharma-over-life.org is of Rath by "Profit over life".
The Profit Over Life website was put together by Rath and his associates. The Tribunal Against the Oil and Drug Cartel was a large part of the Nuremberg trials. I presume you don't have an issue with the archive as such.

Your additional information is essentially circular.
I don't think so.

I don't accept this kind of stuff at face value.
Same here. I look into it carefully.

That's why I asked for peer-reviewed sources. I appreciate it might be a bit laborious to find academic verification. But for the kinds of claims you're making I think you need to be a good deal more specific.
Of course in relation to Rath himself and his associates, the "peer-reviewed sources" in the western medical establishment will be almost entirely dismissive; that's a given.

For instance a lot of Germans were card-carrying Nazis, but not all were war criminals. Many stayed behind in Germany during the Nazi era, compromising themselves in the process, but not necessarily endorsing Nazi crimes. As for Hallstein, his Wikipedia entry provides no evidence of criminality: Walter Hallstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I'm surprised that you trot out Wikipedia. The people who want to whitewash Hallstein and his ilk have total control over Wikipedia. They make sure that nothing negative appears there. Large areas of Wikipedia are controlled in the same way -- constantly monitored and edited to fit an agenda. Those people have the resources to do it.

I have seen this in detail in relation to the issue of fluoridation. When anyone submits the nasty facts about fluoridation in Wikipedia they are quickly edited out. (You can track the editing actions.) There's a group of people in the CDC in Washington tasked with this carry-on. Fluoridation is a huge issue, with huge vested interests; they have to keep it going at all costs.

About Hallstein, you can find the unpleasant facts here. Further reading here. Hallstein was an important Nazi, and after the war he was dishonest about that, even perjuring himself in court.

And I don't see what Ter Meer has to do with the EU: Fritz ter Meer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ter Meer was a leading German industrialist, among the select few who, to a large extent, controlled the origins of the EEC. His war criminal past was conveniently forgotten.

To me it is obvious that people like Hallstein and Ter Meer should have been prevented from getting anywhere near such power.

As for Rath himself, check out his entry in Wikipedia: Matthias Rath - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
There you go again. The Wikipedia page is bound to be completely biased against Rath.

He sounds like a bit of a sales merchant to me, and not a little eccentric.
Maybe he is, but his work in medical research, his collaboration with Linus Pauling, and his work on 20th century German history... all that speaks for itself. Having said that, I don't regard such people as infallible. Certainly Linus Pauling once made a terrible blunder by giving an endorsement to fluoridation as a public health measure.
 

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