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German medical specialists to do nixers in Ireland?


patslatt

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Many German medical specialists to fly to London for a few days at a time to do nixer operations in London hospitals. They are attracted by fees that are very high compared to pay in Germany.I'd read in an international survey that their pay averaged about €70,000 a year, a fraction of the princely pay of €200,000 plus on offer to consultants here in contract negotiations. I wasn't quite sure if I could fully believe the German pay figure until today's Irish Times article by the German ambassador,Christian Pauls "I regret any misunderstandings" roughly confirmed it:

"...the minister for health's offer of €200,000 per year and a possible additional €20,000 as "Mickey Mouse money". The listeners probably laughed in amazement. It is well known that more than a few senior doctors in German hospitals would be happy to earn one third of the stated amount."

Maybe hospitals short of medical specialists and with long waiting lists could persuade the Germans to fly an extra hour or two to work in Irish hospitals and clear up the backlogs.

If Polish plumbers,English executives and French call centre workers are happy to work here,why not German medical specialists? Is there some contractual commitment between the HSE and the Irish medical specialists that prevents this free movement of skills,even though EU doctors are qualified to work across the EU?
 


The Field Marshal

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In light of the current governments proposals to hire 200 Indian and Pakistani doctors your proposal has a lot of merits..

Indeed the conversational english skills of the German would probably average higher than those from India or Pakistan.

IMC agrees rules for temporary doctors - RT News
 

RobertW

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Nearly four years between the opening and second posts.

Must be a record.
 

The Field Marshal

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Nearly four years between the opening and second posts.

Must be a record.
What difference does it make?

The point is that the current government are intent on hiring 200 Indian/Pakistani doctors to make up for the shameful inadequacy of the Irish health system.

The OP suggests bringing in EU doctors .

Which would you prefer?
 

frequency

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What difference does it make?

The point is that the current government are intent on hiring 200 Indian/Pakistani doctors to make up for the shameful inadequacy of the Irish health system.

The OP suggests bringing in EU doctors .

Which would you prefer?
The non-EU doctors (or rather, non western EU doctors) do not necessarily view Ireland as a prime destination. Salaries after tax are comparable, and purchasing power for cost of living is a lot less than most western european countries. Hence, few if any are interested in moving here - after the money, there is a much much worse professional quality of life.

There is no restriction on movement of doctors or specialists in the EU, and since 2005 any EU specialist is free to automatically be approved for working here either privately or publically (HSE or otherwise).
 

frequency

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,why not German medical specialists? Is there some contractual commitment between the HSE and the Irish medical specialists that prevents this free movement of skills,even though EU doctors are qualified to work across the EU?
a) Ireland is a crap place to work
b) There is no contractual committment between the HSE and "irish medical specialists"; not even sure how that would even work.
 

The Field Marshal

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The non-EU doctors (or rather, non western EU doctors) do not necessarily view Ireland as a prime destination. Salaries after tax are comparable, and purchasing power for cost of living is a lot less than most western european countries. Hence, few if any are interested in moving here - after the money, there is a much much worse professional quality of life.

There is no restriction on movement of doctors or specialists in the EU, and since 2005 any EU specialist is free to automatically be approved for working here either privately or publically (HSE or otherwise).
So with cheap flights why cant non Irish EU doctors be persuaded to temporarily assist Irelands shortage?
It should be possible considering the high salaries.
 

Skypeme

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So with cheap flights why cant non Irish EU doctors be persuaded to temporarily assist Irelands shortage?
It should be possible considering the high salaries.
There may well be some years between the posts but the basic thrust of the OP is still the same. It could have been written yesterday. If the anecdotal evidence is to be believed we have a hugely dysfunctional health service (aka Angola) staffed by people who have an exaggerated opinion of their "worth" to society.

However, now we have an individual, responsible in another life for succesfully screwing the taxpayer on behalf of his medical colleagues and who claims to have the inside track on the health service, lets see how long it takes to 'sort it'.

Or is it a case of betting on how long before a can of red paint is deployed in his direction. I suspect the latter.
 

The Field Marshal

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There may well be some years between the posts but the basic thrust of the OP is still the same. It could have been written yesterday. If the anecdotal evidence is to be believed we have a hugely dysfunctional health service (aka Angola) staffed by people who have an exaggerated opinion of their "worth" to society.

However, now we have an individual, responsible in another life for succesfully screwing the taxpayer on behalf of his medical colleagues and who claims to have the inside track on the health service, lets see how long it takes to 'sort it'.

Or is it a case of betting on how long before a can of red paint is deployed in his direction. I suspect the latter.
Ireland has 5 medical schools to train doctors.IINM
I suspect at least 200 graduate per annum from these schools.

The state having subsidized these doctors to the tune of 60 to 70 grand per annum, permits them to hop off scott free.

Its time all students receiving high end 3rd level education were indentured to the state for a minimum period of 4 years post qualification to pay back some of the staggering largesse conferred on these people by the taxpayer.

---
 

asknoquestions

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Indeed the conversational english skills of the German would probably average higher than those from India or Pakistan.
Not necessarily - English is an official language in India but a lot of German doctors wouldn't know even the technical medical terms in English. Edit - Germans are rubbish at small talk anyway :)

Incidentally, Germany also has problems with shortages of doctors and recently passed legislation enabling employers to advertise outside the EU for doctors without first advertising within the EU or Germany.

There is obviously something wrong with European education systems where our supposed knowledge economies are not producing enough skilled workers like doctors.
 

zzzdr

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Ireland has 5 medical schools to train doctors.IINM
I suspect at least 200 graduate per annum from these schools.

The state having subsidized these doctors to the tune of 60 to 70 grand per annum, permits them to hop off scott free.

Its time all students receiving high end 3rd level education were indentured to the state for a minimum period of 4 years post qualification to pay back some of the staggering largesse conferred on these people by the taxpayer.

---
What's high end?

Engineering but not arts?

Medicine but not nursing?

Science but not business?
 

The Field Marshal

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What's high end?

Engineering but not arts?

Medicine but not nursing?

Science but not business?
Off topic question.
 

nakatomi

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What difference does it make?

The point is that the current government are intent on hiring 200 Indian/Pakistani doctors to make up for the shameful inadequacy of the Irish health system.

The OP suggests bringing in EU doctors .

Which would you prefer?
We have tried bringing in european doctors, they will not come here anymore.
Irish doctors will not stay with the villification here with better conditions overseas makes the choice easy.


Ever wonder why so few British/german /french specialists apply to be consultants in Ireland?
 

nakatomi

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Well most consultants will often try to gain employment in their own country, if they decide to emigrate to another country they will do so for a number of reasons, such as training opportunities, working conditions , compensation and lifestyle choice.
In Ireland many of our junior doctors are heading to Australia for these reasons, many will not return. The training opportunities and the quality of the training the rapid career progression means that consultants are often trained in 5 years as opposed to the 10-15 years here. Working conditions in these countries mean you are generally limited to 39 hours a week. You generally work with the latest equipment that is properly maintained. With adequate resources and generally less overcrowding.
The compensation offered to Irish doctors is not exceptional, consultants earn as much in many countries such as the UK, it is much less than doctors earn in Canada, Australia or the US.
 

nakatomi

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I agree it is pertinent. but I do wonder why Limerick was given a medical school. In the 70s a report came out stating we had too many medical school places.
 

drzhivago

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Respectfully, would you care to enlighten us?
Most aspiring specialists when leaving their own countries go somewhere which will give them new skills, enhance their cvs and enable them to climb the career ladder usually in a country more developed than their own.

Germany and the UK are both huge healthcare systems with vastly more opportunities available in them professionally, academically and financially than there are in ireland

A person who can earn a lot of money in medicine will want to continue and sustain that earning potential. working in ireland would not be seen as career advancement fro someone from UK or Germany this a short term contract of flying visit medicine will not assist them in that venture

witness the result of flying visit medicine this week in the reports related to the treatment of female patient who had breast implant surgery at clinics in Ireland, some of them almost died

Is that what society wants
 

drzhivago

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I agree it is pertinent. but I do wonder why Limerick was given a medical school. In the 70s a report came out stating we had too many medical school places.
In recent years reports have identified that we need more specialists and thus more graduates to produce these specialists

In addition traditional entry to medical schools had been criticised as producing the wrong type of graduate hence the push for post graduate or graduate entry medical degrees
 

drzhivago

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Ireland has 5 medical schools to train doctors.IINM
I suspect at least 200 graduate per annum from these schools.

The state having subsidized these doctors to the tune of 60 to 70 grand per annum, permits them to hop off scott free.

Its time all students receiving high end 3rd level education were indentured to the state for a minimum period of 4 years post qualification to pay back some of the staggering largesse conferred on these people by the taxpayer.

---
I have thought about this for some time

for such a plan to be brought in it would require a few things to be sorted out

  1. This would need to happen for all courses
  2. There would need to be a lead in period so people can prepare/save for college fees (presuming there would be increased fees for those who do not stay here to work)
  3. jobs must be provided to ensure doctors get fully registered

when I graduated there were not enough Intern positions for all graduates so many of us emigrated in the beginning. You cannot get a licence to practice without doing an intern year

There are still not enough Intern posts for all graduates so what do we do

IF ALL Stayed they we would have an oversupply of doctors and how would that work in your indentured scenario, who would be allowed to leave and who would be forced to stay

Medical jobs are not all the same

Taking your example of being forced to work here for 4 years what would the doctors work at

Taking our current scenario most of them would be in A&E because that is where the shortage is BUT if the doctor wanted to be a psychiatrist, public health doctor, paediatrician, pathologist, radiologist that would not be of any use to them, they would have wasted 4 years of their medical working lives and not advanced in the career path they wished which I fear would drive more people out and also urge more people to leave medicine and the country altogether
 

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