Government signals end of line for Metro North

Aindriu

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THE Government has signalled that the Metro North light rail system to Dublin Airport may be scrapped -- despite being given the green-light by planners yesterday.
In a clear indication that the €2.5bn project was under threat, Tanaiste Mary Coughlan said the money might not be available to build the line.
Taoiseach Brian Cowen also refused to say if the project -- which would create up to 4,000 jobs -- would go ahead.
An Bord Pleanala yesterday granted planning permission for the 15km light-rail project which will link St Stephen's Green with Swords.
The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) has already spent €130m and plans to spend another €85m next year on pre-construction works. But it cannot go ahead until the Government signs off on the project.
Transport Minister Noel Dempsey yesterday said a formal decision would be made at the end of next year.
Mr Cowen also refused to commit to the project.
At last some common sense!

read the full article here.
 


Grumpy Jack

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At last some common sense!

read the full article here.
Already a thread here.

http://www.politics.ie/transport/141399-metro-north-railway-order-approved-abp-3.html

It says nothing of the sort. It's the Indo spinning the govt kicking to touch ahead of the Budget to keep FF backbenchers and Greens both onside.

No decision on Metro will be made until the 'best and final offer' PPP bids based on the An Bord Pleanala ruling have been submitted in the new year.

Then and only then can an up to date Cost Benefit Analysis be done.

Both FG and Labour are in favour of the project in principle and want to see that CBA before making their decisions. Labour have rowed back from Gilmore's off-the-cuff comment on RTE radio a few weeks ago and are now taking a similar position to FG.

Wishful thinking on the part of ill-informed opponents of Metro but we'll know what the decision will be next spring when the full PPP contract and cost details, CBA, and consequences of proceeding/cancelling are available.
 
J

john moriarty

The very idea that
going to the airport
requires a change
of trains from the
south city is insanity.

I'd imagine the west
city is equally borked.
 

Grumpy Jack

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The very idea that
going to the airport
requires a change
of trains from the
south city is insanity.

I'd imagine the west
city is equally borked.
When Metro is built - and I believe it will be - the Green line can and will be later upgraded to Metro to provide a north-south Metro spine to Bray as recommended in 2001 by the DTO in Platform for Change. That will link the southside to the airport without the need for changing at the Green.

The Green Luas was built to Metro standard after the govt of day decided to proceed with it rather than delay it while a Metro plan was developed. It can be upgraded by extending the tunnel from Stephen's Green to Beechwood or beyond.

Metro West from Tallaght through Clondalkin, Lucan and Blanchardstown which will link into Metro North at Dardistown will be able to run straight through to the airport or into the city centre - again as recommended by the DTO in PFC.
 
J

john moriarty

Good. My childhood of messing
around mainlines led me to believe
that the Green line was actually
capable of heavier traffic. Sleepers
looked too robust for lighter traffic.
 

Keith-M

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Nothing says "third world country" like queuing in the rain for 15 minutes for a rip-off taxi ride or a bus taking an hour from the time you board it, to the time you get off in the city centre. In that sense, we shouldn't be fooling visitors to Dublin with a 21st Century public transport system. We should show them how backward this country is from the moment they arrive. "No to progress, no to Metro North".
 
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Aindriu

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When Metro is built - and I believe it will be.
What with FFS? Shirt buttons? WE ARE BROKE!!!!!! :mad:

Some folk still need a reality check it seems :mad:
 

kerdasi amaq

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Oh dear, that's 3,999 foreigners who won't find work building a railway in Ireland.
 

florin

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Yes, let's build it in 50 years time for ten times the cost.
 

powderfinger

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Already a thread here.

http://www.politics.ie/transport/141399-metro-north-railway-order-approved-abp-3.html

It says nothing of the sort. It's the Indo spinning the govt kicking to touch ahead of the Budget to keep FF backbenchers and Greens both onside.

No decision on Metro will be made until the 'best and final offer' PPP bids based on the An Bord Pleanala ruling have been submitted in the new year.

Then and only then can an up to date Cost Benefit Analysis be done.

Both FG and Labour are in favour of the project in principle and want to see that CBA before making their decisions. Labour have rowed back from Gilmore's off-the-cuff comment on RTE radio a few weeks ago and are now taking a similar position to FG.

Wishful thinking on the part of ill-informed opponents of Metro but we'll know what the decision will be next spring when the full PPP contract and cost details, CBA, and consequences of proceeding/cancelling are available.
Presumably the selected PPP consortia bankers (AIB,Macquarie Group,and Barclays Private Equity) will require the State to underwrite the financing risk before a contract to proceed with Metro North is finalised?

Discussed on thread below.
http://www.politics.ie/transport/61347-state-must-back-metro-financing-says-bidder.html
 

Keith-M

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What with FFS? Shirt buttons? WE ARE BROKE!!!!!! :mad:

Some folk still need a reality check it seems :mad:

The country was in worse shape in the 1920/30s and we built Ardnacrusha. Large scale public building projects that add real benefit (as this one certainly does) should still be done. They create employment and put money into the country in the short term and provide long term benefit for everyone. Far better to spend our money on this that keeping the montrously expensive public service intact.
 

Grumpy Jack

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What with FFS? Shirt buttons? WE ARE BROKE!!!!!! :mad:

Some folk still need a reality check it seems :mad:
It is you who need the reality check.

Have you read and understood anything about Metro North that has been posted on this site?

It's a fixed price PPP finance, build and operate contract which will be paid back over 25 years with the first fixed repayment due in 2016/17 when the line begins operations.

The intial outlay to the State will be a total of €250m (€75m in 2011 and €175m in 2012) for enabling works and land aquisition before the main PPP construction contract can begin in late-2012.

There is also a €500m loan from the European Investment Bank towards the cost of the project.

The State's initial outlay will be more than paid back in taxes and spending in the economy during the four-year construction period.

Estimtates range between €700m and €1.1bn to State over four years depending on whether it's 4,000, 6,000, or 8,000 jobs created by the construction, support and spin-off work.

The State does not have to cough up €2.5bn or €3bn in the next year or even four years for Metro North.

Start doing some research instead of posting utter nonsense based on your own ignorance and ill-informed prejudices.
 

Grumpy Jack

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Presumably the selected PPP consortia bankers (AIB,Macquarie Group,and Barclays Private Equity) will require the State to underwrite the financing risk before a contract to proceed with Metro North is finalised?

Discussed on thread below.
http://www.politics.ie/transport/61347-state-must-back-metro-financing-says-bidder.html
As far as I am aware, that is not the case. The risk is with the bidders. I asked that specific question of someone close to the project at the time of that report and that is what I was told.

Alstom, the company whose rep made that claim, is not part of the final two consortia.
 

danger here

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When Metro is built - and I believe it will be - the Green line can and will be later upgraded to Metro to provide a north-south Metro spine to Bray as recommended in 2001 by the DTO in Platform for Change. That will link the southside to the airport without the need for changing at the Green.

The Green Luas was built to Metro standard after the govt of day decided to proceed with it rather than delay it while a Metro plan was developed. It can be upgraded by extending the tunnel from Stephen's Green to Beechwood or beyond.

Metro West from Tallaght through Clondalkin, Lucan and Blanchardstown which will link into Metro North at Dardistown will be able to run straight through to the airport or into the city centre - again as recommended by the DTO in PFC.
GJ I'd admire your commitment to the MN/DU cause but I think you need a dose of reality.I think you have blinkered vision about this.

#1 Metro/Green Line will not cover people who live west of Dundrum.How many people are really going to spend 55 mins between Tallaght and the city centre on the Luas before changing for MN?Is someone from Crumlin going to wait on a bus that runs once an hour to go to Dundrum to change for Metro/Greenline to the airport when it they can drive it or get a lift it 20mins with the M50?

#2 The will is not there with ordinary punters let alone the political classes.Building metros doesn't win votes when there are devastating health cuts,regardless of whether MN is ringfenced or not.

#3 As I said before,MN,DU/Dart,Luas,bus is not a comprehensive network for Dublin,it's more of a ad hoc Irish soultion to an Irish problem.See the Luas BXD line as an example of this.
 

Grumpy Jack

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GJ I'd admire your commitment to the MN/DU cause but I think you need a dose of reality.I think you have blinkered vision about this.

#1 Metro/Green Line will not cover people who live west of Dundrum.How many people are really going to spend 55 mins between Tallaght and the city centre on the Luas before changing for MN?Is someone from Crumlin going to wait on a bus that runs once an hour to go to Dundrum to change for Metro/Greenline to the airport when it they can drive it or get a lift it 20mins with the M50?

#2 The will is not there with ordinary punters let alone the political classes.Building metros doesn't win votes when there are devastating health cuts,regardless of whether MN is ringfenced or not.

#3 As I said before,MN,DU/Dart,Luas,bus is not a comprehensive network for Dublin,it's more of a ad hoc Irish soultion to an Irish problem.See the Luas BXD line as an example of this.
If Metro and Dart U are not built then I will guarantee you two things - Dublin will be gridlocked by 2020 and job creation will become more and more difficult as firms will not want to set up or expand in a city where you cannot get around. We saw it in late-90s to late-2000s and we will see it again.

Planners have been warning about this for years but these warning keep being drowned out by clueless naysayers - who then moan and whinge on Liveline and on blogs when this actually comes to pass.

1. Tallaght to city centre is 40mins on Luas and will be 55 mins to airport on Metro West. The M50 will gridlock again when recovery comes. Jesus, it only takes a spot of rain or a minor prang to clog it as it stands. It is bucketing down now in Dublin - I guarantee the M50 will be a car park in both directions this evening, as will every other major arterial route out of Dublin city. Metro North/Luas Green will eventually run to Bray and all future development in south Dublin/north Wicklow for the next 30 years will be along the line. And why would anyone need to geta bus from Crumlin to Dundrum when they could get a bus from Crumlin direct to Stephen's Green or Christchurch to catch Metro or Dart? You are bashing out opposition for the sake without any clear, coherent thought.

2. Tell that to the people in the areas that will be served by Metro and Dart. It is an issue because future job creation will depend on those lines. Metro is a major issue in Swords, Ballymun, etc, because people living there see the benefits of it. Why do you think Labour have rowed back on Gilmore's 'shove back Metro' comments of a few weeks ago? Because their reps were getting it in the neck because they seemed to be the only party not backing Metro.

3. Metro, Dart, Luas, Dublin Bus does provide a comprehensive network similar to other cities. When built, you will be able to get into and around the city and suburbs much more quickly and efficiently because there will be less people in cars.
 

Roll_On

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When Metro is built - and I believe it will be - the Green line can and will be later upgraded to Metro to provide a north-south Metro spine to Bray as recommended in 2001 by the DTO in Platform for Change. That will link the southside to the airport without the need for changing at the Green.

The Green Luas was built to Metro standard after the govt of day decided to proceed with it rather than delay it while a Metro plan was developed. It can be upgraded by extending the tunnel from Stephen's Green to Beechwood or beyond.

Metro West from Tallaght through Clondalkin, Lucan and Blanchardstown which will link into Metro North at Dardistown will be able to run straight through to the airport or into the city centre - again as recommended by the DTO in PFC.
hate to burst the bubble but even if the green line is rebranded as metro, there will still be a requirement to change at the green
 

Roll_On

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your below argument is entirely based on airport traffic, the airport is but one stop on the network

#1 Metro/Green Line will not cover people who live west of Dundrum.
yes there is a significant gap in the network between tallaght and Dundrum, this can be fixed by a future extension of the metro from stephen's green to rathfarnam via rathmines harolds X etc.

How many people are really going to spend 55 mins between Tallaght and the city centre on the Luas before changing for MN?
people wishing to access the airport from tallaght should use metro west.

Is someone from Crumlin going to wait on a bus that runs once an hour to go to Dundrum to change for Metro/Greenline to the airport when it they can drive it or get a lift it 20mins with the M50?
from crumlin, you could just walk to harold's X and get a 16a, or if the metro were extended to rathfarnam, use that.

#2 The will is not there with ordinary punters let alone the political classes.Building metros doesn't win votes when there are devastating health cuts,regardless of whether MN is ringfenced or not.
MN won't effect the health budget, MN will only neet €200m in pre construction works, and will not have a net cost to the state until 2020ish

#3 As I said before,MN,DU/Dart,Luas,bus is not a comprehensive network for Dublin,it's more of a ad hoc Irish soultion to an Irish problem.See the Luas BXD line as an example of this.
what's not comprehensive about it? it seems simple enough to me, alot less complicated than London's district and northern lines
 
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Grumpy Jack

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hate to burst the bubble but even if the green line is rebranded as metro, there will still be a requirement to change at the green
No there won't - the tunnel will be continued to a point where it can meet the existing line and seemlessly join it. There are options along the line. Beyond Beechwood was mentioned before and then there is the Alexandra College car park and pitches which would offer sufficient space for a tunnel to surface and join the existing line.

It will not be a rebrand but a full upgrade. I have been told it is possible but that it won't be considered till mid-2020s or beyond and not before rest of system is completed and operational.

It does not pose an engineering problem but will require sufficient demand, political will and funding. Most stops would be lengthened with 100m platforms and a number which are too close to others would be eliminated.
 


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