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Government spending well over half of national income-enough?


patslatt

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Apr 11, 2007
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13,693
Ireland has caught up with the two biggest spending welfare states, France and Sweden,with government spending at around 56% of Gross National Income.See tables at end of http://budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2013/Documents/Budget 2013 - Economic and Fiscal Outlook.pdf

Key figures: Current spending estimate 2012 €60.4 billion + capital spending 6.8 bn = 67.2 bn. Plus interest costs 6.3 for a total of €73.5 billion. Gross national income (GNI) was 80.5% of GDP in 2011 and given the Finance estimate for 2012 for GDP of 163 bn,that suggests GNI of €131 bn. Total government spending of 73.5 bn divided by 131 bn is 56%,so well over half of national income is spent by government.

With a well run government,such spending should give Ireland free health care,plentiful social housing,free third level education,primary schools free of prefabs,very generous day care,generous care for the elderly,high quality nursing homes and high quality public transport in the major cities.But lack of long range planning in favour of parish pump politics over decades has prevented proper development of these services. Let's hope the upcoming constitutional convention can find a remedy even if the public is not yet disillusioned with extreme proportional representation.
 


tokkie

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Joined
Jan 15, 2011
Messages
18,895
Ireland has caught up with the two biggest spending welfare states, France and Sweden,with government spending at around 56% of Gross National Income.See tables at end of http://budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2013/Documents/Budget 2013 - Economic and Fiscal Outlook.pdf

Key figures: Current spending estimate 2012 €60.4 billion + capital spending 6.8 bn = 67.2 bn. Plus interest costs 6.3 for a total of €73.5 billion. Gross national income (GNI) was 80.5% of GDP in 2011 and given the Finance estimate for 2012 for GDP of 163 bn,that suggests GNI of €131 bn. Total government spending of 73.5 bn divided by 131 bn is 56%,so well over half of national income is spent by government.

With a well run government,such spending should give Ireland free health care,plentiful social housing,free third level education,primary schools free of prefabs,very generous day care,generous care for the elderly,high quality nursing homes and high quality public transport in the major cities.But lack of long range planning in favour of parish pump politics over decades has prevented proper development of these services. Let's hope the upcoming constitutional convention can find a remedy even if the public is not yet disillusioned with extreme proportional representation.
Pat. Have to agree that at least two of those should be available when set in context against the spend.
 

statsman

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Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
56,218
Ireland has caught up with the two biggest spending welfare states, France and Sweden,with government spending at around 56% of Gross National Income.See tables at end of http://budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2013/Documents/Budget 2013 - Economic and Fiscal Outlook.pdf

Key figures: Current spending estimate 2012 €60.4 billion + capital spending 6.8 bn = 67.2 bn. Plus interest costs 6.3 for a total of €73.5 billion. Gross national income (GNI) was 80.5% of GDP in 2011 and given the Finance estimate for 2012 for GDP of 163 bn,that suggests GNI of €131 bn. Total government spending of 73.5 bn divided by 131 bn is 56%,so well over half of national income is spent by government.

With a well run government,such spending should give Ireland free health care,plentiful social housing,free third level education,primary schools free of prefabs,very generous day care,generous care for the elderly,high quality nursing homes and high quality public transport in the major cities.But lack of long range planning in favour of parish pump politics over decades has prevented proper development of these services. Let's hope the upcoming constitutional convention can find a remedy even if the public is not yet disillusioned with extreme proportional representation.
Maybe they should announce some cuts. Like a budget kind of thing. I'm sure everyone would support that fully.
 

Fractional Reserve

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Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
8,289
Yeap and look at France its going down the shyte pipe .Its commie time and people better get used to it .Governments in the West are all broke and they will be going after the rich who will bury there loot or move it out , they will improverish the middle classes,they will stop employers employing with political and taxation instability .
Ireland has caught up with the two biggest spending welfare states, France and Sweden,with government spending at around 56% of Gross National Income.See tables at end of http://budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2013/Documents/Budget 2013 - Economic and Fiscal Outlook.pdf

Key figures: Current spending estimate 2012 €60.4 billion + capital spending 6.8 bn = 67.2 bn. Plus interest costs 6.3 for a total of €73.5 billion. Gross national income (GNI) was 80.5% of GDP in 2011 and given the Finance estimate for 2012 for GDP of 163 bn,that suggests GNI of €131 bn. Total government spending of 73.5 bn divided by 131 bn is 56%,so well over half of national income is spent by government.

With a well run government,such spending should give Ireland free health care,plentiful social housing,free third level education,primary schools free of prefabs,very generous day care,generous care for the elderly,high quality nursing homes and high quality public transport in the major cities.But lack of long range planning in favour of parish pump politics over decades has prevented proper development of these services. Let's hope the upcoming constitutional convention can find a remedy even if the public is not yet disillusioned with extreme proportional representation.
 

Nocal

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Apr 19, 2011
Messages
157
Slightly off topic, but can somebody please show me where I can get figures for our current deficit and how much of the deficit is due to bank debt (recapitalisation), bailout debt (to keep us afloat) and old debt (legacy debt from before the bust in 2007)? I'm tired of hearing people saying that without the bank debt we would be fine but I only have estimates on what portions of our deficit are due to the varying reasons. Thanks!!
 

needle_too

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Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
923
I wonder will Tonic et al. be along now to trumpet about how FF have been in power for most of the time since independence but have singularly, and as a deliberate act of policy, failed to deliver any of the above.

FG/LAB/SF/GREENS/THE MAN ON THE STREET would have delivered these policies - granted, by different mechanism and requiring different levels of taxation and allowances - by now.

Instead we have NAMA, the IMF and continued, entrenched, corruption.

Well done FF; The bane of Ireland.

Heres hoping the current administration can slowly unwind the fk up that FF has made of our economy, culture and nation and deliver, through hell or high water, the future that the young of Ireland deserve.

FF: self-serving dogs and traitors.
Small-minded, big-mouthed men in cheap suits.

Never forget what they did to your country, your people, your family and your future.
 
Last edited:

Conor

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Key figures: Current spending estimate 2012 €60.4 billion + capital spending 6.8 bn = 67.2 bn. Plus interest costs 6.3 for a total of €73.5 billion. Gross national income (GNI) was 80.5% of GDP in 2011 and given the Finance estimate for 2012 for GDP of 163 bn,that suggests GNI of €131 bn. Total government spending of 73.5 bn divided by 131 bn is 56%,so well over half of national income is spent by government.
You're double-counting the €6.3bn of interest costs. It's already included in the current spending estimate under "Non-voted Expenditure".
 

Taxi Driver

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Slightly off topic, but can somebody please show me where I can get figures for our current deficit and how much of the deficit is due to bank debt (recapitalisation), bailout debt (to keep us afloat) and old debt (legacy debt from before the bust in 2007)? I'm tired of hearing people saying that without the bank debt we would be fine but I only have estimates on what portions of our deficit are due to the varying reasons. Thanks!!
You seem to be using deficit and debt interchangeably.

Based on the figures this week the 2012 deficit will be €13.4 billion. Because of revenues from the guarantee, central bank, and other receipts from the banks if there wsa no bank bailout the deficit would be HIGHER probably close to €14.5 billion.

The debt at the end of 2012 the debt will be around €190 billion.

Pre-2008 debt: €45 billion
Deficits 2008-2012: €80 billion
"Bank" debt: €45 billion
Other: €20 billion

The 'Other' is mainly borrowing the build up a cash buffer of nearly €25 billion in the Exchequer Account.
 

pragmaticapproach

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Yeap and look at France its going down the shyte pipe .Its commie time and people better get used to it .Governments in the West are all broke and they will be going after the rich who will bury there loot or move it out , they will improverish the middle classes,they will stop employers employing with political and taxation instability .
My biggest fear is that rapid advances in capital goods technology(in the west overall) will save their backsides, helping to maintain the status quo. Even with the undermining of real savings and investment in the real economy by state monetary and taxation policy , the rate of technological advancement is still speeding up.
 

tigerben

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A friend of mine today said , without the reduction of core welfare rates and rent allowance there's no need for the unemployed eastern European to leave these shores. She is right , all those leave and empty units in housing rises,, and investors are up the creek without a paddle.
 

GDPR

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FG/LAB/SF/GREENS/THE MAN ON THE STREET would have delivered these policies - granted, by different mechanism and requiring different levels of taxation and allowances - by now.
Yes, of course they would, because we know just how well they've done any time they had the chance and we know just how well they're doing now, with 2 of the most regressive budgets in our history.

Well done chaps.
 

Nocal

Active member
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
157
You seem to be using deficit and debt interchangeably.

Based on the figures this week the 2012 deficit will be €13.4 billion. Because of revenues from the guarantee, central bank, and other receipts from the banks if there wsa no bank bailout the deficit would be HIGHER probably close to €14.5 billion.

The debt at the end of 2012 the debt will be around €190 billion.

Pre-2008 debt: €45 billion
Deficits 2008-2012: €80 billion
"Bank" debt: €45 billion
Other: €20 billion

The 'Other' is mainly borrowing the build up a cash buffer of nearly €25 billion in the Exchequer Account.
Many thanks. Much food for thought. I had. So the interest on the Banks debt of 45Billion is how much per year? I've seen 6.5Billion bandied around?
 

Taxi Driver

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Many thanks. Much food for thought. I had. So the interest on the Banks debt of 45Billion is how much per year? I've seen 6.5Billion bandied around?
That's the total interest bill. Interest related to the banks is about 1/4 of the total.
 

patslatt

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Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,693
I wonder will Tonic et al. be along now to trumpet about how FF have been in power for most of the time since independence but have singularly, and as a deliberate act of policy, failed to deliver any of the above.

FG/LAB/SF/GREENS/THE MAN ON THE STREET would have delivered these policies - granted, by different mechanism and requiring different levels of taxation and allowances - by now.

Instead we have NAMA, the IMF and continued, entrenched, corruption.

Well done FF; The bane of Ireland.

Heres hoping the current administration can slowly unwind the fk up that FF has made of our economy, culture and nation and deliver, through hell or high water, the future that the young of Ireland deserve.

FF: self-serving dogs and traitors.
Small-minded, big-mouthed men in cheap suits.

Never forget what they did to your country, your people, your family and your future.
A friend who attended a FF function about 10 years ago expected to meet dowdy women but was pleasantly surprised at their good taste in clothes!
 

The Field Marshal

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Aug 27, 2009
Messages
44,412
There is but one solution to Irelands financial troubles:

Deep castration at every level of Irelands current and past political class.
 

patslatt

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Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,693
Yes, of course they would, because we know just how well they've done any time they had the chance and we know just how well they're doing now, with 2 of the most regressive budgets in our history.

Well done chaps.
VOTED FF FOR BUBBLE ECONOMY;VOTED LEFTIES TO CURB GOVERNMENT SPENDING-OR CONTINUE THE ILLUSION?

What next? Immature East Belfast undergraduate Shinnernomics driving a FF coalition? "We'll nationalise the women and give every man his chance when the Red Revolution comes",all together now, sing along. Next request is the wonderful ballad "The Flag of Sinn Fein". But maybe Gerry's hardline negotiating skills could come in useful with the ECB.
 
R

Ramps

Ireland has caught up with the two biggest spending welfare states, France and Sweden,with government spending at around 56% of Gross National Income.See tables at end of http://budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2013/Documents/Budget 2013 - Economic and Fiscal Outlook.pdf

Key figures: Current spending estimate 2012 €60.4 billion + capital spending 6.8 bn = 67.2 bn. Plus interest costs 6.3 for a total of €73.5 billion. Gross national income (GNI) was 80.5% of GDP in 2011 and given the Finance estimate for 2012 for GDP of 163 bn,that suggests GNI of €131 bn. Total government spending of 73.5 bn divided by 131 bn is 56%,so well over half of national income is spent by government.

With a well run government,such spending should give Ireland free health care,plentiful social housing,free third level education,primary schools free of prefabs,very generous day care,generous care for the elderly,high quality nursing homes and high quality public transport in the major cities.But lack of long range planning in favour of parish pump politics over decades has prevented proper development of these services. Let's hope the upcoming constitutional convention can find a remedy even if the public is not yet disillusioned with extreme proportional representation.
The problem of evaluating such a great involvement of govt. in the economy is a bit like the problem an alcoholic has when he thinks about the amount of booze he consumes: the politician and the drinker are barely able to remember a time when things were any different! It's not that the alcoholic is unaware of the number of bottles he is putting away every day, at the moment; it's that he has forgotten how few bottles he used consume in order to get the same effect...and he avoids thinking about how much he will have to consume in the future!

It's truly remarkable to hear people such as V. Browne bemoan the fact that govts. in the West only control about half of national incomes; he is like the alcoholic who doesn't see the big deal with his drinking 2 bottles of vodka a day...sure wasn't it always like that?! Isn't such an amount of spending inevitable?! Funny thing is if you went back 100 years, when govts. controlled 10-15% of NI, and if Browne were presenting a show on TV, he'd have told you you were being hysterical had you suggested that increasing govt. control to 20% was not a good idea and that it will soon go up to 25%,30%,35%,40%... "Nonsense. This is just a small increase to pay for the services we need. Once we pass this tax increase, all our public services will be full funded."

The problem is that govt., like the alcoholic with his booze, will never have enough money; it always needs more, for govt. has all the traits of the addict. That's why the Prez of France could say with a straight face that introducing a top rate of tax of 75% was a good idea. Mon Dieu!!
 

McTell

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No
That 56% is 56% of a much shrunken economy. France and Sweden haven't declined nearly as much.
 

stopdoingstuff

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Surely the point is not that it is spending such a large percentage but that it is borrowing to do it.
 

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