Government to take control of some Catholic schools

Skrynesaver

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The "State" does pay for anything. The taxpayers do, and many are Christians. If they want some of their taxes to pay for religious education, that is democracy.
The taxpayers provide the money the state uses, what you describe is not democracy but mob rule
 


johnfás

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The taxpayers provide the money the state uses, what you describe is not democracy but mob rule
Choice is mob rule, classic. White Horse didn't suggest that only one form of school should be provided - merely that choice should be provided for those people who contribute financially to our society and have a preference for a particular ethos in which to educate their children. It seems what alot of people shouting loudly want is simply to replace one form of totalitarianism with another. Most rational people consider this pretty retrograde and this is recognised in most developed countries (including the poster boys of secularism such as France) who do indeed provide state funding for religious schools. The only place that doesn't is the USA, who have ended up with an unregulated and dysfunctional parallel system of religious schools which offer a poor curriculum. I'd rather we subsidised a reasonable choice for parents and funded schools subject to their teaching a national curriculum - which is what we already do but are accelerating changes owing to the accelerated demographic changes taking place in our society.
 

Decadance

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I think you will find that the schools in the state are run by Boards of Management - not the Government or the state. Therefore the removal by the boards of the local priest would adequately deal with this issue.
 

Skrynesaver

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Rubbish.

Taxpayers, the vast majority of whom are religious, pay for compulsory education in national schools, not the government.

[Skrynesaver is deluded into thinking that the govt is entirely independent of the taxpayer:rolleyes:]

In a democracy it is normal to respect the wishes of the vast majority who desire a denominational element in their childrens compulsory state education.

Skrynesaver :confused::rolleyes:clearly admires the Marxist,Soviet system of compulsory state indoctrination where parents have no say whatever in what beliefs their children are taught:rolleyes:
Did you read what I said or were you foaming at the mouth too heavily to see the entire post?

What ever people wish to teach people of their world-view in their own time is fine, but you have no right to demand I pay my tax to fund the religious education of my child. If you want to tell them fairy stories that is entirely your business but using the education system to reinforce your indoctrination is mob rule.
 

FrankSpeaks

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I'm not sure where I stand on this issue. I know my own kids are in the same school that both myself and their grandfather attended. A Catholic school where preparation for the various church sacraments is mainly done by teachers. In my oldest lads class this year almost 20% of the class were opting out of first communion I think in our school this would be quite unusual but it didn't seem to cause any problems. It was dealt with very matter-of-factly by the staff and the kids seemed to treat it as a perfectly logical and acceptable choice. Point being a well run catholic school does not need to be a place where kids from other or no denomination need be uncomfortable.


The state already has a big say in the administration of schools from the makeup of the boards and the training of parent members of school boards to the curriculum that must be taught in the schools. In many ways I believe from what the church has been saying that in some areas they would be quite happy to relinquish responsibility for the schools where control has been de-facto removed from them because of the large numbers of non-catholic children attending the schools. As the state is already paying the salaries of the teachers and staff as well as capitation to these schools I cannot see it costing much extra.

I think that the parents of children in a school that has been selected should have the final say in whether a school comes under state control. I would include all parents of children who have been registered with the school for subsequent academic years.
The facts are that the bishops has control of the school, he decides who to hire and fire, yet, we the taxpayer are paying the piper but we cannot call the tune. If parents want to send kids to church run schools then they should pay for them, secular schools run by the state should be free.
 

deiseguy

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The state has no input into who sits on the board except in schools run by VECs.

By and large, schools are owned and run by non-state entities, (usually some church or other), which are completely unaccountable, and in many cases, secretive. For all its flaws, (and there are many), at least the workings of the state are subject to some level of public scrutiny. Effectively the state has outsourced the education of young people to a the private sector.
Yes it does the state proscribes the makeup of school boards. The boards are made-up of patrons nominees(I can't see the difference between a political appointment and a church one the chances of ending up with a catholic fundamentalist demented oul one and some FF appointed hack are about the same) two parents appointed by the parents council, the principal and another member of staff plus two extra members agreed by the above groups. In the case of my kids school this means that there are in fact 4 parents including the boards chair on an 8 person board. If parents are strong enough they can have a very strong say in how their school is run.

I don't know how to provide links just check the citizens information website or schooldays.ie .
 

sondagefaux

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Like all secularists you are deluded.

[1]The OP has provided no evidence at all to back up the story

[2] Ireland is nominally 85% Christian. Non Christians = perhaps 5%.
Secularists atheists liberals and other similiar deluded types=at most
2%.
[3] Democracy is important and Iireland being democratic it is essential & important that denominational non secular education be provided to the vast majority of its citizens who want it.
What 'vast majority'?

IN THE wake of the Murphy report a majority of people believe that the Catholic Church should give up its control of the primary school system, according to the latest Irish Times /Ipsos, MRBI poll.

When asked about the issue, 61 per cent of people said the church should give up control of the school system, 28 per cent said it should maintain its position and 11 per cent had no opinion on the matter.
Catholic Church 'should give up control of primary schools' - The Irish Times - Mon, Jan 25, 2010
 

johnfás

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The majority said that they should give up its current role (of dominance) in the sector - while a sizeable number said that it should continue in its current position (a position I disagree with). The question posed did not concern whether or not one considered that there should be a role for the Catholic Church (or other churches) at all in providing schools. I support a diminishment of the Catholic Church's role in education but I equally support diversity in the education system including the provision of Catholic and other schools.

The cited reported doesn't tell us anything except that a sizeable majority of the population believe that there should be less Catholic schools. But sure doesn't the Catholic Church believe that as well? Certainly I think they have said something along those lines.
 

deiseguy

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Details are sketchy but this could be a good move.

The Church is frustrated with the burden of having to operate quasi-secular schools and have been trying for some time to get the State more involved.

In reality, the State is quite hapy to divest itself of control.

However, demographic changes, parental demands, and the multiplicity of religions have forced the State to get involved.

The hope in the Church is that the schools who remain within it's sphere will become more devout and concentrate more on the religious upbringing of children.

Within Church circles, divesting itself of the necessity of running quasi-secular schools is seen as the beginning of an evangelical renewal.
Exactly.
 

FrankSpeaks

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Does the State not set the syllabus? Does the State not inspect the schools? That is quite a lot of control.



I see that cost deducted from my pay packet every month.
The state should have control over who to hire and fire after all it pays them.
 

FrankSpeaks

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Yes it does the state proscribes the makeup of school boards. The boards are made-up of patrons nominees(I can't see the difference between a political appointment and a church one the chances of ending up with a catholic fundamentalist demented oul one and some FF appointed hack are about the same) two parents appointed by the parents council, the principal and another member of staff plus two extra members agreed by the above groups. In the case of my kids school this means that there are in fact 4 parents including the boards chair on an 8 person board. If parents are strong enough they can have a very strong say in how their school is run.

I don't know how to provide links just check the citizens information website or schooldays.ie .
What is the chance of one of the non-catholic parents getting on the board? Let me hazard a guess, Zero, Doh.
 

deiseguy

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The state should have control over who to hire and fire after all it pays them.
Personally I would prefer parent led schools but the possibilities for conflicts of interest are endless. The current patron led system is not doing that bad a job providing enough parents are prepared to work and not just bitch expecting everything to be just handed to them. Too many parents are unwilling to accept that in relation to their childrens education that "they" is in fact themselves.
 

Ingersoll

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I can see no reason at all that any person in this country would want religion taught to their children during the school day. Teach it at home if it is important to you, or go to church. There is no place for religious control of state education in a secular democracy.
 

deiseguy

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What is the chance of one of the non-catholic parents getting on the board? Let me hazard a guess, Zero, Doh.
In the case of my own kids school I would hazard a guess that the chair of the parents council is not catholic he is certainly not Irish and his current position puts him in line for a position on the board in the future. I would think that in any school a parent who demonstrates a willingness to work on the parents council would find that progression to the board of management would be easy enough.
 

liamfoley

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Religion has no place in schools, if people wish to train their kids to believe in their own worldview in their own time that's fine but the state paying for teaching of religious dogma is unacceptable.

Personally I'm glad that this change is happening, however slowly.
No place in schools? Even Catholic schools? My! That's very liberal of you. The issue is about government expropriation and their competency. I for one do not trust the state and the teachers unions. I do not think that they have the best interests of students at heart.
 

deiseguy

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I for one do not trust the state and the teachers unions. I do not think that they have the best interests of students at heart.
Best comment ever at a schools meeting after the principal had been banging on for five minutes about the difficulty of getting staff agreement about changing a work practice to one that suited parents and pupils better. One of the parents, a self-employed woman with plenty of experience dealing with staff simply replied "there are more than teachers in the school Sean". He nearly swallowed his tongue
 

Ingersoll

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Isn't God recognised in the Irish constitution? That would make us a Christian democracy rather than a secular one.
The constitution can and should be changed to remove such rubbish. A 'Christian democracy' is a euphemism for a theocracy - we are a secular state with an anachronistic constitution. Time to grow up and move on.
 


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