Government to take control of some Catholic schools

M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

"In an effort to promote diversity" the Government has drawn up plans to take control of some of the countries Catholic schools.



This isn't really necessary at all is it. Firstly, have we the money for this, secondly, even if we did should the State be running schools at all!

Source: here
I welcome this. There are simply too many catholic-run schools in this country.

Why is it not necessary? This should have been done years ago. Who else should run schools?
 


Foghorn

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I very much welcome this - its important to move away from our system and more to a more secular one.
Exactly! Let's move away from the system that doesn't represent the values of our Society. That's fair after all. :rolleyes:
 

Cato

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Exactly! Let's move away from the system that doesn't represent the values of our Society. That's fair after all. :rolleyes:
Surely you would welcome this as a move towards imposing a more doctrinally pure Catholicism on the remaining Catholic schools, shorn of the elements that do not really want to have anything to do with that religion.
 

White Horse

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The constitution can and should be changed to remove such rubbish. A 'Christian democracy' is a euphemism for a theocracy - we are a secular state with an anachronistic constitution. Time to grow up and move on.
Therefore, you canot state (as you did) that Ireland is a secular state. You based your argument on such a premise.

What you may wish to change is a different matter.
 

Hazlitt

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Who else should run schools?
That's an odd question. What exactly can the State do that the independent sector can't?

The best example of the conclusive failure of State-directed education is the fact that every one of us has been directed to learn Gaeilge for years. What percentage of the population speaks fluent Irish ?
 

theObserver@hotmail.com

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A school is effectively an factory churning out (hopefully) responsible Irish citizens every year with the skills and wisdom necessary to navigate their lives.

Faith schools produce little more than moral sheep, children's whose heads are either full of fairy tales or full of vacuum having long realized religion is a pile of nonsense.

It's time we grew up and started acting like self-sufficient adults, not the little scared children of God frightened by the big bad meaningless world.

Let the Irish nation run our schools. Not Rome or Saudi Arabia.
 
M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

That's an odd question. What exactly can the State do that the independent sector can't?

The best example of the conclusive failure of State-directed education is the fact that every one of us has been directed to learn Gaeilge for years. What percentage of the population speaks fluent Irish ?
You asked "should the state be running schools at all". I was asking who else, if not the state, should run them. What's odd about it? You didn't outline what other bodies should run schools in the OP.. so curiousity got the better of me.

I don't see that as a failure per se. Sure a low percentage of the population can speak fluently as Gaeilge but the last census showed that a huge majority of the population have knowledge in and of the language. The figures for fluency reflect (IMO) the growing influence of English as the language of communication. I do however accept that the teaching of the Irish language is severely flawed and should be overhauled to include more proficiency in conversing in the language.
 

theObserver@hotmail.com

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You asked "should the state be running schools at all". I was asking who else, if not the state, should run them. What's odd about it? You didn't outline what other bodies should run schools in the OP.. so curiousity got the better of me.
A non-trival amount of people want schools run exclusively on the local level with little to no state involvement.
 

sondagefaux

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The majority said that they should give up its current role (of dominance) in the sector - while a sizeable number said that it should continue in its current position (a position I disagree with). The question posed did not concern whether or not one considered that there should be a role for the Catholic Church (or other churches) at all in providing schools. I support a diminishment of the Catholic Church's role in education but I equally support diversity in the education system including the provision of Catholic and other schools.
A clear majority of respondents wanted the Catholic Church to give up control of schools.

I'd be quite happy to have a referendum on this issue, with a wording which stated that 'faith' schools would be funded in proportion to the percentage that voted in favour of the referendum.

The referendum need not change the constitution, merely ask the question if the state should fund denominational schools.

Perhaps a question along these lines: 'The state shall fund denominational schools, using taxpayers' money and other sources of state funding as permitted by this constitution and law, in proportion to the number of voters who vote in favour of this referendum. Do you support this proposal?'

If 28% vote in favour,then 28% of schools are denominational schools which get funded by the state, using taxpayers' money and other state funding.

The cited reported doesn't tell us anything except that a sizeable majority of the population believe that there should be less Catholic schools.
That was the point I was trying to make.

But sure doesn't the Catholic Church believe that as well? Certainly I think they have said something along those lines.
I think you mean Archibishop Diarmuid Martin's proposal, yet to be implemented, that up to a third of primary schools in his diocese be taken out of church control.
 

liamfoley

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Does that desire for lack of state involvement include funding? ;)
The funding comes from the parents through their taxes, but not without paying for unnecessary levels of administration. Let them pay less tax I say.
 

Mr B

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I think because the whole country is becoming a more pluralist one - not just Catholic there are now more people of other faiths and none.

I don't agree the country is becoming more secular and i base this on my own experiences attending church on sundays where the congregation numbers don't appear to be decreasing, instead the church is packed with parishioners.
 

liamfoley

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I don't agree the country is becoming more secular and i base this on my own experiences attending church on sundays where the congregation numbers don't appear to be decreasing, instead the church is packed with parishioners.
Throughout Ireland less people are practicing their religion on a regular basis but people still regard themselves as Catholic and parents desire a Catholic education for their children.
 

sondagefaux

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parents desire a Catholic education for their children.
Some do, some don't. The only evidence we have is from opinion polls and surveys which show that many Catholic parents want their kids educated in non-denominational schools.
 

sondagefaux

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The funding comes from the parents through their taxes, but not without paying for unnecessary levels of administration. Let them pay less tax I say.
Parents aren't the only people who pay taxes.
 

liamfoley

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Some do, some don't. The only evidence we have is from opinion polls and surveys which show that many Catholic parents want their kids educated in non-denominational schools.
Show us the data then and let us debate it. But what do you mean by "many?" Also note that non-denominational does not mean no religion in schools.
 

liamfoley

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Parents aren't the only people who pay taxes.
So you are saying that people pay taxes who do not have children in school should be determining policy? If not what exactly are you saying in that post?
 

sondagefaux

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So you are saying that people pay taxes who do not have children in school should be determining policy? If not what exactly are you saying in that post?
That's what happens now. The government, supported by TDs chosen by all voters, not just those with kids in school, determines education policy. I don't see a problem with that.

Do you support a situation where only people who use services determine policy related to those services? If not what exactly are you saying in that post?
 

liamfoley

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Here's one poll:

Catholic Church 'should give up control of primary schools' - The Irish Times - Mon, Jan 25, 2010

Non-denominational means that no religious denomination controls the school.
There is no real data provided with that story. This poll, conduced by redc, while not as recent gives contradictory conclusions while actually providing real data. http://www.ionainstitute.ie/assets/files/Iona_Institute_Schools_poll.pdf

The Irish Times poll asked if the Catholic Church should give up (that suggests that the action would be voluntary rather than state expropriation) in the wake of a specific scandal surrounding sex abuse. Sex abuse, however, has little to do with the primary school system. You might disagree but if you do then you must provide evidence that schools were used to procure children for abuse. If no such evidence exists then there is no case. In the light of evidence made available over the last few months the state has shown it is unable to provide adequate care for children. I wonder if a poll was taken with that information would people say they were comfortable with state controlled education. Ultimately these issues are red herrings.
 
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