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Government's new housing proposals mostly good but some bad

patslatt

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See First-time buyers to benefit from 'generous' new mortgage grant - Independent.ie http://www.environ.ie/housing/policy/launch-rebuilding-ireland-action-plan-housing-and-homelessness http://rebuildingireland.ie/Rebuilding Ireland_Action Plan.pdf

Good government proposals would sweep aside planning red tape, vexatious legal appeals and selfish NIMBYism largely by sending planning permissions directly to Bord Pleanala. The latter would need to call on the expertise of local planning offices in decisions. Belatedly, the government has recognised that leaving councils in charge of housing building is a bit like leaving foxes in charge of hen houses,since councillors depend heavily on the votes of NIMBY home owners.

Bad government proposals would give tax rebates to assist first time buyers and give sitting tenant status to tenants in flat complexes of 20 units or more.

As often happens with property buyer tax breaks, the effect is to accelerate buying intentions and drive up prices. In the Celtic Tiger, this contributed needlessly to property price inflation. Maybe if the government and Fianna Fail announced that the tax breaks would be available to buyers over a long time period,say a decade, there would not be a rush to buy.

As for sitting tenants status, maybe the period of tenancy will be guaranteed for a relatively short time period,say a year. Any period longer than that could be viewed by investors as a threat to basic property rights and undermine investment. While the Irish High Court ruled against sitting tenancies decades ago, challenges to court decisions based on constitutional interpretations of the common good might be loose cannons.
 
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GDPR

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I would suggest scrapping development levies and introduce a planning application fee that is equivalent to the north. Would reduce costs and would reduce BS planning applications.
 

Voluntary

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Cash incentives for FTBs are very bad, also differentiating between FTB and not-FTB is just stupid. FTB doesn't mean asset-free, non-FTB doesn't mean has assets. Non FTB definition as never owned a home is unfair. One person invested in a property another in stock, the FTB-based rules reward people who invested in stock and punish these who invested in houses, even though at the current time both may have zero assets (or the same amount of assets).

There are people who bought cheap holiday homes in spain but never owned a home so NON FTB.
There are people who moved from abroad, owned cheap (maybe 10k Euro worth) homes over there so are now NON FTB.
There are people who bought long time ago, sold and don't have any assets now or money - NON FTB.
 

statsman

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Read the thread title and then the name of the OPer. Thought to myself, 'right so, it's almost certainly "mostly bad, but some good"'.
Am I a bad person?
 

statsman

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Cash incentives for FTBs are very bad, also differentiating between FTB and not-FTB is just stupid. FTB doesn't mean asset-free, non-FTB doesn't mean has assets. Non FTB definition as never owned a home is unfair. One person invested in a property another in stock, the FTB-based rules reward people who invested in stock and punish these who invested in houses, even though at the current time both may have zero assets (or the same amount of assets).

There are people who bought cheap holiday homes in spain but never owned a home so NON FTB.
There are people who moved from abroad, owned cheap (maybe 10k Euro worth) homes over there so are now NON FTB.
There are people who bought long time ago, sold and don't have any assets now or money - NON FTB.
This stems from the entirely pernicious idea that buying your own home is actually putting your foot on something called 'the property ladder', i.e. not wanting to have a place to live but becoming a small-scale speculator. Until we stop seeing domestic property as a piece of capitalist game theory and start seeing it as homes, we're never going to solve the problem.

Step one is proper long-term rental provision, so that people can start finding the idea of living in a rented property for 20 years at affordable rents normal. This would alleviate the pressure of feeling that you have to own your home.

Step two is getting LAs back to the business of building social housing to meet their local needs.

Step three is partly in place; mortgage rules that are designed to stop people buying homes they can't afford, thereby breaking the negative equity trap as much as possible both by limiting debt commitments and putting a brake on bubbles.
 

Spirit Of Newgrange

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The fastest growing population in the Western world. There you have your housing crisis.
 

Harmonica

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What is the point of the Central Bank rules if the government are just going to bypass with handouts. Surely they would be better looking at where the state contributes to property costs & seek to reduce or at least freeze those costs. That would of course make too much sense & it also doesn't look as attractive on an election poster.
 

Spanner Island

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Read the thread title and then the name of the OPer. Thought to myself, 'right so, it's almost certainly "mostly bad, but some good"'.
Am I a bad person?
Swings and roundabouts tbh...

Less local control... more centralised remote control... feckin' around with more bureacracy and state interference in the form of grants and tax refunds and all the usual auld crap...

Culchies who haven't a clue about city living have been f***ing up Dublin for decades imo... and the butchery continues...

You only have to look at the dog's dinner that is Stephen's Green to see it clearly.

So my gut instinct is that things like housing probably should be controlled more locally although certain laws etc. should be changed and robustly imposed... one in particular being the introduction of a 'use it or lose it' for those sitting on zoned land with the 'state' able to buy back at pre-zoned rates if development doesn't start within... let's say a maximum of 5 years from when permission is granted.

And as for cities... professional planners with living and working urban experience should be involved in the long term planning of our cities with world class architects procured for high density development.
 

wombat

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The census put the number of vacant properties into context - mostly along the west coast with some in Wexford, looks like holiday homes but either way, they are not much use to people looking to live in cities.
 

Voluntary

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Government wants to give out cash to home buyers as it's afraid the house prices may actually fell now. Government doesn't want failing house prices as this would be seen by citizens as failing economy, pension funds would fall, investments would fall etc etc.

Government is desperately trying to keep the house prices increasing. It doesn't have much firepower though. The 5,000 or 10,000 of taxpayer money pumped into the FTB pocket may only push house prices that much. And we'll all pay for this, it's our money at the end of the day.
 

wombat

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And as for cities... professional planners with living and working urban experience should be involved in the long term planning of our cities with world class architects procured for high density development.
For 1000 years, Dublin expanded into the bay, then we got planners and started covering Kildare & Meath with concrete.
 

statsman

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The census put the number of vacant properties into context - mostly along the west coast with some in Wexford, looks like holiday homes but either way, they are not much use to people looking to live in cities.
Exactly. Existing vacant properties are not going to be of much real help.
 

Spanner Island

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For 1000 years, Dublin expanded into the bay, then we got planners and started covering Kildare & Meath with concrete.
The ongoing obsession with low rise and having a front and back garden has a lot to do with our urban sprawl mess.

There needs to be a few clustered pockets of high rise (and I mean high rise) in certain areas... Docklands and up around Heuston Station would be two I could think of... for various uses... homes, offices and hotels of which there is now a serious shortage of in Dublin.

I've read some estimates putting the shortage at 5,000 bedrooms... and of course housing homeless families in hotels isn't helping either...

And yet we still have councillors voting for a maximum height of 8 stories in the city centre while they continue to moan about a housing crisis... :roll:
 

Gin Soaked

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Apr 25, 2016
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We have a supply problem.

LA' s need to build lots of actual homes people can want to see out their lives in. That way we will build communities.

Also ( and this is political dynamite), how many homes are vacant or rented thanks to the Fair Deal programme?

Is there a better way of flushing them through......?
 

statsman

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Feb 25, 2011
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We have a supply problem.

LA' s need to build lots of actual homes people can want to see out their lives in. That way we will build communities.

Also ( and this is political dynamite), how many homes are vacant or rented thanks to the Fair Deal programme?

Is there a better way of flushing them through......?
As someone who has recently dealt with the Fair Deal programme, I'd say there's no way that can be touched.
 

Diawlbach

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See First-time buyers to benefit from 'generous' new mortgage grant - Independent.ie

Good government proposals would sweep aside planning red tape, vexatious legal appeals and selfish NIMBYism largely by sending planning permissions directly to Bord Pleanala. The latter would need to call on the expertise of local planning offices in decisions. Belatedly, the government has recognised that leaving councils in charge of housing building is a bit like leaving foxes in charge of hen houses,since councillors depend heavily on the votes of NIMBY home owners.

Bad government proposals would give tax rebates to assist first time buyers and give sitting tenant status to tenants in flat complexes of 20 units or more.

As often happens with property buyer tax breaks, the effect is to accelerate buying intentions and drive up prices. In the Celtic Tiger, this contributed needlessly to property price inflation. Maybe if the government and Fianna Fail announced that the tax breaks would be available to buyers over a long time period,say a decade, there would not be a rush to buy.

As for sitting tenants status, maybe the period of tenancy will be guaranteed for a relatively short time period,say a year. Any period longer than that could be viewed by investors as a threat to basic property rights and undermine investment. While the Irish High Court ruled against sitting tenancies decades ago, challenges to court decisions based on constitutional interpretations of the common good might be loose cannons.
Blake v. AG was not an absolute ban on interference or granting enhanced rights to tenants, it ruled that the absolute terms of the particular tenancies, without review or appeal, was disproportionate. A fine, but enormously important, distinction.
 

Diawlbach

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Jul 20, 2011
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We have a supply problem.

LA' s need to build lots of actual homes people can want to see out their lives in. That way we will build communities.

Also ( and this is political dynamite), how many homes are vacant or rented thanks to the Fair Deal programme?

Is there a better way of flushing them through......?
One way of dealing with the supply problem would be much stronger use of derelict property orders, and one whose time I would think is right. The Common Law has always had a surprisingly kindly eye towards the idea of use-it-or-lose-it in respect of land, and it certainly fits the Constitutional order that, as the right to property must be consonant with the common good, it's in nobody's interest that property just be left to rot indefinitely. You get a while, but after that, put it to work or move it to someone who will, sonny boy.
 

Diawlbach

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Jul 20, 2011
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For 1000 years, Dublin expanded into the bay, then we got planners and started covering Kildare & Meath with concrete.
If it's a choice between annoying fish, or pissing off a load of herrings, well, 'tis a hard enough call to make... ;)
 


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