Green Stimulus

sowhat

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Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Messages
714
Ireland's economy needs a massive stimulus to recover from the economic impact of the current crisis.
Wondering what people would like the Green party negotiate in the programme for government?
I think the 3 main priorities should be large investments in our health system, renewable energy and public transport.

Below are some projects that could be begin or accelerated in the next 5 years.

Universal healthcare.
Ambitious acceleration of Renewable power, wind & solar, especially offshore wind.
Closure of Moneypoint coal power station.
House insulation/solar panel upgrade programme.
Dublin Metro.
Cork Luas.
DART to Drogheda & Maynooth.
Navan DART rail line.
DART Underground project.
Cork to Belfast high speed rail service (via Dublin & Dublin airport).
Retirement of diesel rail locomotives to be replaced by either electric or hydrogen trains.
Cork to Limerick direct rail line to be built in parallel to M20 motorway project.
Galway to Tuam commuter rail line.
Grants to electric car buyers to replace older diesel/petrol cars.
Hydrogen fuel cell buses to replace diesel buses.
 


APettigrew92

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Aug 4, 2011
Messages
2,745
Ireland's economy needs a massive stimulus to recover from the economic impact of the current crisis.
Wondering what people would like the Green party negotiate in the programme for government?
I think the 3 main priorities should be large investments in our health system, renewable energy and public transport.
If I've understood the Greens, both past and present, we can expect the following.

1) The sale of public land to private developers because they haven't a notion of how ownership and sanctity of public property works. See O'Devenney Gardens, sold with the accord of Green councillors.

2) A punitive carbon tax which punishes those who cannot afford more expensive hybrid and electric models. It also punishes those who cannot afford to live and raise families in the capital but who happen to have to work and commute there. This windfall can be used to give wealthier individuals tax breaks on the purchase of electric and hybrid models, which will just show it up for what it is : a poverty tax. See the Yellow Shirts protests in France as inspiration for this genius proposal.

3) An all-out assault on rural Ireland - the culling of herds, the slapping of massive carbon taxes on fuel oils necessary to power farm machinery or even just fuel for homes. Why stop there? Make the costs of transport so prohibitive that rural isolation will become a thing of the future. Subsidize rail lines and commuter buses with the income. In cities, mind you. The Greens seem to have no clue how to include rural Ireland within the framework of a "Green" future.

4) The ending of direct provision. Hooray, long overdue. In its place? Oh? Well, they don't seem to have an answer for that. They were planning just to get elected on "good vibes" or whatever.

A Green contribution to Government will be as catastrophic now as it was during the Boom. They still have no idea how to improve the situations of those outside of the rich, urban, "woke" elite.

I'd like to see the Greens disband. That would be the best they could do for this country.
Seconded.
 

McTell

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Oct 16, 2012
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8,346
Back in the 1920s an economist envied our gen for having free power from hydrogen. We have tons of water, the molecule is split by power from hydro.

It doesn't need a party or anyone to argue for it, and it seems dumb for grants to be paid out for anything else.
 

making waves

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Mar 2, 2010
Messages
21,043
Ireland's economy needs a massive stimulus to recover from the economic impact of the current crisis.
Wondering what people would like the Green party negotiate in the programme for government?
The Green Party leadership really don't give a shit about the environment - it is all about fancy bicycles and perks.

Eamon Ryan was a minister in the most vicious austerity government in the history of the state - his track record is zero when it comes to environmental action or progressive policies.
 

making waves

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Mar 2, 2010
Messages
21,043
Universal healthcare.
Ambitious acceleration of Renewable power, wind & solar, especially offshore wind.
Closure of Moneypoint coal power station.
House insulation/solar panel upgrade programme.
Dublin Metro.
Cork Luas.
DART to Drogheda & Maynooth.
Navan DART rail line.
DART Underground project.
Cork to Belfast high speed rail service (via Dublin & Dublin airport).
Retirement of diesel rail locomotives to be replaced by either electric or hydrogen trains.
Cork to Limerick direct rail line to be built in parallel to M20 motorway project.
Galway to Tuam commuter rail line.
Grants to electric car buyers to replace older diesel/petrol cars.
Hydrogen fuel cell buses to replace diesel buses.
Let's look at your list -

Universal healthcare - The Green Party have no problem with private healthcare and openly supported it in a previous government. Furthermore - the GP is full of anti-vaxers and goofy 'alternative therapies' gurus and its policy document continues to promote the idea that private for-profit healthcare can continue to provide 'facilities and services to a publicly funded healthcare system'

Renewable power / Moneypoint - what is their track record - look at the Rossport debacle while they were in government - and the Poolbeg incinerator

House insulation / solar - did noting while in government - and the reality is that putting a couple of solar panels on individual houses is a wasteful and expensive approach to renewable energy

Various public transport initiatives - the Green party wouldn't even support the implementation of free public transport - something that exists in more than 120 cities across the world. In fact their proposals wouldn't even put the same number of buses on the streets of Dublin that existed in 1960.

Electric cars - they support the utter daft proposal of 1 million electric cars in Ireland - an incredible waste of financial and natural resources. The only way to deal with the issue of transportation is a MASSIVE expansion of public transport - and the relocation of jobs so that workers do not have to commute 1-2 hours every day to work.

Hydrogen fuel cell buses - still in the experimental stage and not necessarily the best solution


The biggest problem with the Green Party is that they are a pro-capitalist party - and it is capitalism that is killing the planet - if you want to solve the environmental crisis then you have to tackle the root cause of the problem.
 

farnaby

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May 15, 2006
Messages
2,002
The biggest problem with the Green Party is that they are a pro-capitalist party - and it is capitalism that is killing the planet - if you want to solve the environmental crisis then you have to tackle the root cause of the problem.
The only economic "ism" that doesn't seek to maximise production based on intensive extraction and energy use is feudalism. Socialism, communism, capitalism - just different ways of working the perennial make-use-dispose model.

Approaches aiming to avert climate change (and other environmental challenges) such as circular economy, biomimicry, cradle-to-cradle etc. try to break out of this model - and have both capitalistic and socialistic elements. They are private enterprise/entrepreneur-focused, but encourage worker ownership and labour-intensive maintenance practices. So it's not as simple as economic left/right.
 

making waves

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The only economic "ism" that doesn't seek to maximise production based on intensive extraction and energy use is feudalism. Socialism, communism, capitalism - just different ways of working the perennial make-use-dispose model.

Approaches aiming to avert climate change (and other environmental challenges) such as circular economy, biomimicry, cradle-to-cradle etc. try to break out of this model - and have both capitalistic and socialistic elements. They are private enterprise/entrepreneur-focused, but encourage worker ownership and labour-intensive maintenance practices. So it's not as simple as economic left/right.
You poor delusional fool - someone who thinks there can be a 'moral' and 'ethical' capitalism.
 

farnaby

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You poor delusional fool - someone who thinks there can be a 'moral' and 'ethical' capitalism.
Misrepresentation. I'm hopeful there will be a proper 'third way' in our lifetimes, neither capitalism nor socialism. I'm certain there will be in the long term.
 

farnaby

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You poor delusional fool - someone who thinks there can be a 'moral' and 'ethical' capitalism.
Anyway the discussion isn't about ethical capitalism, it's about your implication that the destruction of capitalism would automatically be positive for the climate. My point is that socialism has historically entailed aspirations to the same amount of (dirty, extractive, energy-guzzling) production as capitalism, just that output is spread evenly across workers.
 

Seán E. Ryan

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I'd love to live on a pristine planet. I've not met many who think otherwise. After that, I part with the greens.

I posted an excellent video above and I recommend that folks give it a browse. It doesn't get everything right and it doesn't go into enough detail a lot of the time. But it gives enough on electric cars, solar power and wind power to show the hypocrisy of the greens and their big business and super rich benefactors.

Hydrogen fuel cells?

If we're going to have fantasy backing the plan for government why not go the whole hog? Teleportation perhaps, powered by energy gathered from magical thinking. The bigger you think, the further you go!

The elephant in the room, as the video rightly nails it, is population size. I'm not telling anyone to keep their trousers on and therein lies the problem. The little death is ultimately responsible, or rather it will be responsible, in the long run, for the big death. Everything that lives, dies, that's inevitable.

When I was a youngfella, a bit more than a while back, I used to clock up more than 150 miles a week going to and coming from work on my bicycle. I wasn't trying to save the planet. I couldn't afford car insurance. So I was a fit bastard and that was my reward. If someone had told me then that my actions were saving the planet, I'd have laughed at and ridiculed them. I utterly fail to see why that particular attitude should change now. Likewise I fail to see why a political platform should be offered to folks who think they're entitled to one just because they cycle or to those who point out the blindingly obvious and act as if they're offering mystical revelation. Particularly so when said revelation neither addresses nor tackles the blindingly obvious.

The greens are more a religious cult than a political party and they should fúck right off and drink some coolaid.
 

McTell

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Oct 16, 2012
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Whatever systems we develop, they should be local. Problem now is the big money goes to big orgs backed up by the suits, whose only interest in people is as consumers with direct debits.

Even the current plan to increase the population by a million by 2040 is there to help pay civil servants' unfunded pensions. Long-ago promises that couldn't be kept. It will be interesting to see if the GP sign up to this.

Rather a million extra AI robots, that we should be building.
 

Eurosceptic_1

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May 29, 2012
Messages
132
Ireland's economy needs a massive stimulus to recover from the economic impact of the current crisis.
Wondering what people would like the Green party negotiate in the programme for government?
I think the 3 main priorities should be large investments in our health system, renewable energy and public transport.

Below are some projects that could be begin or accelerated in the next 5 years.

Universal healthcare.
Ambitious acceleration of Renewable power, wind & solar, especially offshore wind.
Closure of Moneypoint coal power station.
House insulation/solar panel upgrade programme.
Dublin Metro.
Cork Luas.
DART to Drogheda & Maynooth.
Navan DART rail line.
DART Underground project.
Cork to Belfast high speed rail service (via Dublin & Dublin airport).
Retirement of diesel rail locomotives to be replaced by either electric or hydrogen trains.
Cork to Limerick direct rail line to be built in parallel to M20 motorway project.
Galway to Tuam commuter rail line.
Grants to electric car buyers to replace older diesel/petrol cars.
Hydrogen fuel cell buses to replace diesel buses.
1) Although in theory sounds nice, in practice it would be extremely expensive and unaffordable. So, initially I would limit only to the Dublin Metro network, with 2-3 circular lines and 10-15 radial lines, with one of them going to both of the terminals at Dublin airport. Probably we would have to bring the experts from abroad, especially from China, Russia, and Germany, as we don’t have necessary expertise to build such network quickly and at affordable cost.

2) I would definitely avoid the “acceleration of Renewable power, wind & solar, especially offshore wind” part, as it is not viable economically on a stand-alone basis.
 

recedite

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Nov 20, 2010
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Everything in the OP sounds good.
I'd also add;
1) All bus and taxi lanes to be converted to High Occupancy Vehicle Lanes. This would cost nothing and very beneficial. So any private car carrying x number of occupants could use the lanes. Car pooling is more environmentally friendly than a half empty bus, and a lot more so than a taxi driver cruising around on his own, waiting for a passenger.

2) Ban diesel boat engines on the Shannon, the canals and inland lakes. Set up a cabin cruiser tourist industy based on hydrogen fuel cell and electric battery power. This would not make a huge difference to overall CO2 emissions, but it would be more of a flagship project to increase our reputation and standing in the world, and to improve the quality of the our tourism product in the long term.

3) Revive and then expand the "green wave" cycling initiative.
 

McTell

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Except, except, you should see planet of the humans first. All the ideal schemes have attracted grants, and then the banks and corps move in.

Then they nit pick, redefine, and extract the profitable bits

 

brughahaha

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Jun 1, 2009
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If I've understood the Greens, both past and present, we can expect the following.

1) The sale of public land to private developers because they haven't a notion of how ownership and sanctity of public property works. See O'Devenney Gardens, sold with the accord of Green councillors.
The Greens are environmental FGers , full of the protected "professional" classes . They'll never stand in the way of anything that generates fee income or gives the market primacy ..... And the bill will always be new taxes to cover it.

What happened in O'Deveny gardens was appalling ....... but in our neo liberal media cheerlead economy , privatising public assets is perfectly normal

The sale of publicly owned via a semi state land by RTE another example

2) A punitive carbon tax which punishes those who cannot afford more expensive hybrid and electric models. It also punishes those who cannot afford to live and raise families in the capital but who happen to have to work and commute there. This windfall can be used to give wealthier individuals tax breaks on the purchase of electric and hybrid models, which will just show it up for what it is : a poverty tax. See the Yellow Shirts protests in France as inspiration for this genius proposal.

The Greens answer to EVERYTHING is a new tax and a new quango, entirely populated by the protected "professional" classes mentioned above .
 

recedite

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Except, except, you should see planet of the humans first. All the ideal schemes have attracted grants, and then the banks and corps move in.
There is a separate thread for that movie. I watched it, I debunked it.
 

brughahaha

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Messages
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Everything in the OP sounds good.
I'd also add;
1) All bus and taxi lanes to be converted to High Occupancy Vehicle Lanes. This would cost nothing and very beneficial. So any private car carrying x number of occupants could use the lanes. Car pooling is more environmentally friendly than a half empty bus, and a lot more so than a taxi driver cruising around on his own, waiting for a passenger.

One of the biggest problems about ANY of DCCs traffic plans , and again with these new "phased" plans which everyone knows will be permanent, as are ideologically driven, is that they never take account of deliveries .

And why would they ? the people who make these decisions have never had to consider how their desk, chair, phone, coffee, computer , projector, electricity , carpet etc etc arrived , I can guarantee none have ever run an SME and instead come straight from some ideological "urban planning" course with a doctrine as rigid as any communist indoctrination camp. ...Many of them believe Dobby the house elf delivered it and then disappeared .(or worse , make the working class oiks work through the night so they dont inconvenience my morning latte )

If they really wanted to help Dublin city recover as a mixed use city centre , rather than a Tourism replica and night time Entertainment centre then by all means ban cars , but learn to differentiate between cars and deliveries.(which despite the platitudes they NEVER do)

To that end Commercials should be allowed use bus lanes between 10.30 and 3.30 to reduce costs on businesses
 


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