Greens say Metro may have to wait - ST

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In today's Sunday Times Sarah McInerney reports that Dan Boyle has said that Metro North may have to wait.

The suggestion this may happen is because of Green Party concerned over public services being cut "excessively" over the next four years.

Dan Boyle told the ST that the Dart Interconnector should take priority over Metro North as it's a smaller project.
 


antiestablishmentarian

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In today's Sunday Times Sarah McInerney reports that Dan Boyle has said that Metro North may have to wait.

The suggestion this may happen is because of Green Party concerned over public services being cut "excessively" over the next four years.

Dan Boyle told the ST that the Dart Interconnector should take priority over Metro North as it's a smaller project.
Hmm I doubt anyone takes Tweety Birds opinions on these things seriously anymore, he's an FF mudguard along with the rest of the Greens.
 

alonso

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The last line is very true but we require a transport system not a bunch of different lines. If Metro North is put back because of lies from the media then it is a victory for the cavemen and will compromise the national economy even further.
 

dotski_w_

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In today's Sunday Times Sarah McInerney reports that Dan Boyle has said that Metro North may have to wait.

The suggestion this may happen is because of Green Party concerned over public services being cut "excessively" over the next four years.

Dan Boyle told the ST that the Dart Interconnector should take priority over Metro North as it's a smaller project.
LMAO!

from 7 days ago ....

Gilmore's desire to delay Metro North is concerning / Latest news / News / Home - Green Party / Comhaontas Glas

Green Party TD for Dublin North Trevor Sargent expressed strong concerns about Labour Party Leader Eamon Gilmore's admission that the Metro North project would be “shoved back” if Labour get into Government. Gilmore made the comments on the Marian Finucane radio show on Saturday.

Deputy Sargent said, “It is incredible that Eamon Gilmore talks about the importance of job creation but is willing to shelve one of the largest infrastructural projects to come to North County Dublin. Metro North is not a vanity project for anybody; it is a project that will enhance economic recovery for the Greater Dublin Region; support job creation for the north of the city and county; and whisk hundreds of thousands of people around Dublin in an efficiently and sustainably.

"Eamon Gilmore’s statement demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about how economic recovery will be achieved.”

Sargent added: “It is now clear why Labour has been reluctant to talk about their policies on the economy – their policies are fundamentally flawed.

"To state that Metro North is not a priority for any government displays a major lack of understanding about the economic importance of North Dublin as part of the North/South Economic Corridor and how it will contribute to the economic recovery of the country. It is abundantly clear that Labour will cause more damage to the economy by making short-termist decisions that will be counterproductive to job creation.”.
 

Franzoni

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Hmm I doubt anyone takes Tweety Birds opinions on these things seriously anymore, he's an FF mudguard along with the rest of the Greens.
Dan Boyle isn't a mudguard but a FF arsewipe....

I have a serious problem with this guy who wasn't elected by anyone making these pronouncements as if it's fact...

whtever the pros and cons of the metro north..some sort of LUAS north should be done linking up with the rest of the network....no tunnels or digging up beautiful public parks...
 

FutureTaoiseach

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Bad move. Labour were on the back foot over this and now Boyle has given them faux-credibility. :roll: With friends like these....
 

Grumpy Jack

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Like Gilmore, Boyle quite clearly doesn't know what he is talking about. He told ST that Metro should be put off in favour of "smaller projects like the Dart interconnector".

Dart Underground is a bigger, more complex, more expensive project than Metro North. In total, it will cost in excess of €4bn, including the tunnels and stations, electrification of the existing Maynooth and Kildare lines and the purchase of more than 400 new Dart cars at around €2m a pop.

However, both Metro and Dart are essential as together they will form the backbone of Dublin's future transport system. Politicians playing petty populist politics could cause untold damage to Dublin's future ability to function if Metro, DartU or both are delayed or worse abandoned.

On a related note, the RPA will this week lodge the Railway Order Application for Metro West with ABP. They're seeking an order with a 15-year life span but still aim to begin construction in 2015 with operations beginning in 2019.
 

RBinge

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In today's Sunday Times Sarah McInerney reports that Dan Boyle has said that Metro North may have to wait.

The suggestion this may happen is because of Green Party concerned over public services being cut "excessively" over the next four years.

Dan Boyle told the ST that the Dart Interconnector should take priority over Metro North as it's a smaller project.
Thankfully the Greens will be run out of Dodge as fast as their bicycles will carry them after the next election.

I used to wonder why rail projects like DART and Luas copped so much flak from commentators but an architect of my acquaintance put me right on this.

"They haven't figured out how to make money off the back of a rail project, unlike road ones"

I wonder what Snout in the Trough quotient Metro North has? It must be less than road projects, as there has never been any quibbling by the great and good in the media or politics about motorway and road schemes.
 

Al.

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In today's Sunday Times Sarah McInerney reports that Dan Boyle has said that Metro North may have to wait.

The suggestion this may happen is because of Green Party concerned over public services being cut "excessively" over the next four years.

Dan Boyle told the ST that the Dart Interconnector should take priority over Metro North as it's a smaller project.
Wow, look how implacable and unwieldy politicking has gotten. The most useless and overly-expensive project (a duplicate of an existing line that can use the extant DMUs, to boot, and this duplicate does not serve the city centre) in favour of an actual new rail line (its format being folly is yet another matter; it should itself be DART) that serves places heretofore unserved by rail.

Never mind "public services"...people want and need jobs, not "public services", and guess what the new rail lines are intended to do?—yes, take people to/from jobs primarily, not provide free tours around the city to an idle populace (and how do you fund "public services" never mind public buses and passenger rail if people are not working and paying taxes?!?); they certainly are not new freight rail lines connected to the general railway network, and that's yet another matter concerning the economy.

The Greens are quite the party of corruption. They'll lead the country into deeper servitude to the false identity of "European Union".
 

TradCat

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Dan Boyle isn't a mudguard but a FF arsewipe....

I have a serious problem with this guy who wasn't elected by anyone making these pronouncements as if it's fact...
I'd like to know why he has a Constituency Office in Cork South Central when his Constituency is Bertie Ahern from Drumcondra.
 

Grumpy Jack

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Wow, look how implacable and unwieldy politicking has gotten. The most useless and overly-expensive project (a duplicate of an existing line that can use the extant DMUs, to boot, and this duplicate does not serve the city centre) in favour of an actual new rail line (its format being folly is yet another matter; it should itself be DART) that serves places heretofore unserved by rail.

Never mind "public services"...people want and need jobs, not "public services", and guess what the new rail lines are intended to do?—yes, take people to/from jobs primarily, not provide free tours around the city to an idle populace (and how do you fund "public services" never mind public buses and passenger rail if people are not working and paying taxes?!?); they certainly are not new freight rail lines connected to the general railway network, and that's yet another matter concerning the economy.

The Greens are quite the party of corruption. They'll lead the country into deeper servitude to the false identity of "European Union".
Al, I assume you are referring to Dart Underground as being "The most useless and overly-expensive project (a duplicate of an existing line that can use the extant DMUs, to boot, and this duplicate does not serve the city centre)"?

When you first came off with this guff I assumed you were plain ignorant of the Dart project. But now I'm going to take it that you are just being downright disengenous like you are with your anti-EU and anti-German rantings.

Dart U is not "useless" - it is criticial infrastructure that links up the existing heavy rail lines and creates two new Dart lines that serve the northern, southern and western suburbs of Dublin and the hinterland towns through the city centre where they interchange at Pearse Station. Without it all we have are three disjointed rail lines, one electric and two diesel.

It is does not "duplicate" an already existing line - it creates a new cross-river rail corridor through the busiest part of the south city centre that serves the main residential, commerical, shopping, education, leisure and tourist areas in the city.

It is not a link between Connolly and Heuston as you maintain - the DU tunnel line does not even serve Connolly but Docklands and then Clontarf and northwards. Dart 1 will serve Connolly while Dart 2 will serve Heuston - if you wish to go to either station from the other line, you transfer at Pearse. It's that simple. With trains running every four minutes peak, a trip by Dart and a change at Pearse will still be quicker than the Luas which you assume - incorrectly - DU duplicates.

By referring to DMUs, you are quite obviously implying that the Phoenix Park Tunnel and line into Connolly from Liffery Junction is also "duplicated" by DartU as another Heuston-Connolly link. This is patent nonsene. What areas would such a line serve? Phoenix Park, Cabra, Phibsboro and Drumcondra? Residential areas but not exactly packed with commerical, shopping, education, leisure and tourist amenities.

Also DMUs are unsuitable to rapid rail transit because the start-stop distance is around 2km between stations while with electric rail cars you can have stations spaced 500m, 750m or 1km apart, which means more startions and a greater coverage area.

DartU is not a new plan - it is simply an update on the 1975 DRRTS plan which gave us the existing Dart line we have today but was abandoned in the 1980s due to cost-cutting before the other two lines and spurs, as well as the city centre tunnels and stations were built. DartU is the DRRTS adapted to the changed circumstances in the city centre where much of the residential and commercial development of the last 20 years has taken place in the north and south docklands, and Pearse, Stephen's Green, Christchurch and Heuston areas.

DartU and Metro North will simply form parts of the same integrated system and - with the existing and planned Luas lines, Metro West, Metro South, Navan line, revamped Dublin Bus network - provide a comprehensive public transport system that will serve the entire greater Dublin area.

Both DU and MN are critical projects and both should be built - if either is abandoned, then the mistakes of the 80s will have been repeated and Dublin will be condemnded to gridlock for another generation once growth returns to the economy.
 

locke

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What I don't get is what benefit there would be in postponing it if it is PPP. You lose the income tax revenues from the people building it, while not saving a cent from ongoing expenditure until it is finished.

I know I've been critical of its failure to link to the national rail network, but cancelling it because of funding considerations would just be mad.

Regarding DART Underground, as well as the connectivity, the amount of extra capacity provided is also critical. You pretty much double the amount of trains you can run through Dublin City Centre. That already solves current rush-hour capacity issues. And while talk of development is regarded as dirty nowadays, it will start up again one day. When that happens, it means we can use the existing lines as development corridors and save ourself the expense of building completely new lines.
 

Grumpy Jack

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What I don't get is what benefit there would be in postponing it if it is PPP. You lose the income tax revenues from the people building it, while not saving a cent from ongoing expenditure until it is finished.

I know I've been critical of its failure to link to the national rail network, but cancelling it because of funding considerations would just be mad.

Regarding DART Underground, as well as the connectivity, the amount of extra capacity provided is also critical. You pretty much double the amount of trains you can run through Dublin City Centre. That already solves current rush-hour capacity issues. And while talk of development is regarded as dirty nowadays, it will start up again one day. When that happens, it means we can use the existing lines as development corridors and save ourself the expense of building completely new lines.
Locke, the media coverage of the Metro and Dart projects has been appalling - governed by prejudice (McDonald, Myers, etc), ignorance (all national media), laziness (ditto) and pursuit of a cheap headline over stories based on those elements over fact.

Not one media outlet has even asked why these projects are planned and what they will do for Dublin. Not one has mentioned the fact that MN and DU are simply updated variations on a 35-year-old plan that was abandoned in the 1980s based on similar lies, hyperbole, ignorance and political opportunism and cowardice. Instead they peddle the ludicrous Michael O'Leary "€5bn airport metro" line. Or Myers's utterly ridiculous 'Necro North' rubbish.

The general public's view on both projects is fed by this media coverage and the willingness to take the pronouncements of various politicians gospel - the ill-informed guff spouted in the last week by Gilmore, Costello and now Boyle are examples of that.

The fact that Metro North is a constant target yet little is written about the Dart project and even less understood about is more proof of media irresponsibility and ignorance. That is why some many myths and downright lies are out there and have been able to take hold with regard to Metro North in particular.

In yesterday's Sunday Business Post, Cliff Taylor wrote this:

It remains to be seen where the axe will fall - major projects such as the Metro North and the proposed underground Dart interconnector in Dublin may be postponed. New Luas lines, beyond those already near completion, are likely to be ditched completely, along with the second proposed Metro line, the Metro West.
Patent nonsense. MN and DU are PPPs - delaying MN now kills it off as a PPP as it will be extremely difficult to attract such interest and investment in the future due to the view taking hold that Ireland is simply too unreliable a country to get involved in. If Metro is killed, Dart is gone too. As for the second part, about ditching Metro West and new Luas lines, that is also more nonsense that a simple phone call to the RPA would have shown.

The RPA will this week lodge a Railway Order Application for Metro West with 15-year life span. That means, that once permission is granted this time next year, the RPA will have until October 2026 to begin construction. The same approach is being taken with the additional Luas lines and major road projects. The planning is being done, the permission is being secured and the decisions to fund and proceed left with future governments. That is a very sensible approach to planning but it is going unreported because the simple questions are not being asked.

However, I have noticed some signs of hope that this is about to change. The Indo on Saturday had two pieces on Metro North that actually contain hard facts and could even be interpreted as favouring the project as they certainly imply a change of tune from Myers's ludicrous rantings.

Metro cost falls by one-third - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie

Metro mania: the €2.5bn plan to create 4,000 jobs - Lifestyle, Frontpage - Independent.ie

Incidentally, on the same day that the Indo was quoting the €2.5bn figure, Frank McDonald in the Irish Times was still using his own €5bn figure which hasn't been relevant for more than five years.

Also, the RPA has put up this Metro North Myths and Facts page on its website - which still hasn't been reported in the national media which constantly peddles lies and myths re Metro North.

Metro North Myths And Facts

Hopefully some editors and reporters will cop on to this - but some how I doubt it. And I say all that as a working journalist who has followed transport planning in Dublin for the last 15 years and who despairs at the lack of balanced, fact-based coverage of these projects in the media.
 
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sowhat

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Saw Eamon Ryan on The week in politics show last night and he firmly backed Metro North and the DART tunnel. Both projects are running under PPP, they will most likely move ahead.

However its a shame that Dublin airport is not connected by intercity rail, perhaps a continuation of the phoenix park tunnel from Cork/Limerick/Tralee/Waterford/Galway rails lines to Dublin airport and on to the Belfast line so that people from other parts of Ireland can get directly to Dublin airport.
Works well for Amsterdam Schipol airport and Paris CDG airport, 2 European hubs that Dublin aspires to be.
 

Grumpy Jack

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Saw Eamon Ryan on The week in politics show last night and he firmly backed Metro North and the DART tunnel. Both projects are running under PPP, they will most likely move ahead.

However its a shame that Dublin airport is not connected by intercity rail, perhaps a continuation of the phoenix park tunnel from Cork/Limerick/Waterford/Galway/Tralee rails lines to Dublin airport and on to the Belfast line so that people from other parts of Ireland can get directly to Dublin airport.
Works well for Amsterdam Schipol airport and Paris CDG airport, 2 European hubs that Dublin aspires to be.
To justify such a Belfast-Dub Airport-Dublin-Cork rail link, you would need an entirely new, high-speed electric line on a new reservation that bypassed all towns on the way and that was tunnelled into Belfast, Dublin and Cork and under Dublin Airport.

The financial cost would be astronomical and totally unaffordable. It is simply not justifiable when you have new motorways and existing rail links between the cities and flights between them (although the Aer Arann service is currently suspended due to that company's difficulties).

Nice idea but utterly unaffordable.
 

sowhat

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The only new line would be an extension of the phoenix park line on to Dublin airport and on to connect to the Belfast line north of Malahide.
Frees up Dublin city centre and the line south of Malahide for DART & commuter trains.
 

Grumpy Jack

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The only new line would be an extension of the phoenix park line on to Dublin airport and on to connect to the Belfast line north of Malahide.
Frees up Dublin city centre and the line south of Malahide for DART & commuter trains.
You can't put diesel passenger trains in long tunnels - that's why the Belfast and Cork trains won't be allowed to run in the Dart interconnector.

Even to use the PPT, any new tunnel would have to run from north of Dublin Airport to Liffey Junction, simply to long for diesel trains.

These myths about the PPT and all the magical lines it can be used for have repeatedly been shot down by rail, engineering and transport experts over the years.

Even if diesel units were allowed in long tunnels, a Belfast-Dublin Airport-Dublin Heuston-Cork diesel train would take around five and a half hours minimum. You can drive it in four on the new motorways - I've done it twice in recent weeks - and a flight between Belfast City and Cork takes just over an hour - city centre to city centre in around two hours. Diesel trains cannot compete with either of those.

As I said, to justify such a line it would need to be an electric high-speed line travelling on its own segregated reservation that bypassed all towns on the way (or was tunelled under them) and was tunnelled into Belfast, Dublin Heuston and Cork stations and under Dublin Airport. Such a line could do the journey in under two hours but the vast capital cost simply cannot be justified.
 

sowhat

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You can't put diesel passenger trains in long tunnels - that's why the Belfast and Cork trains won't be allowed to run in the Dart interconnector.

Even to use the PPT, any new tunnel would have to run from north of Dublin Airport to Liffey Junction, simply to long for diesel trains.

These myths about the PPT and all the magical lines it can be used for have repeatedly been shot down by rail, engineering and transport experts over the years.

Even if diesel units were allowed in long tunnels, a Belfast-Dublin Airport-Dublin Heuston-Cork diesel train would take around five and a half hours minimum. You can drive it in four on the new motorways - I've done it twice in recent weeks - and a flight between Belfast City and Cork takes just over an hour - city centre to city centre in around two hours. Diesel trains cannot compete with either of those.

As I said, to justify such a line it would need to be an electric high-speed line travelling on its own segregated reservation that bypassed all towns on the way (or was tunelled under them) and was tunnelled into Belfast, Dublin Heuston and Cork stations and under Dublin Airport. Such a line could do the journey in under two hours but the vast capital cost simply cannot be justified.
I'm not advocating any new long tunnels, there is plenty of farmland north of Dublin airport to connect to the Belfast line.
However, I do agree that the electrification of our intercity rail network should definitely be done over time. It has already been done on some of the Dublin commuter lines that take both diesel intercity and electric DART commuter trains.
 

locke

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After Dublin suburban has been done, there's probably a case for the electrification of the Cork and Belfast lines, particularly if combined with electrification of Cork suburban and the NI government committing to Belfast suburban.

To be honest, I'd see more interest in opening up connections from Drogheda and Dundalk to Limerick and Cork than a Cork-Belfast line. Even with electrification that's likely to take too long and would, as you say, require a mostly new track. But even the pessimistic population projections have Drogheda and Dundalk becoming small cities in the next 20 years and a service from them to Dublin Airport and onto the cities of the South-West can become important.
 


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