• Before posting anything about COVID-19, READ THIS FIRST! COVID-19 and Misinformation (UPDATED)
    Misinformation and/or conspiracy theories about this topic, even if intended as humor, will not be tolerated!

petaljam

Moderator
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Messages
34,638
And you think no one was murdered in the name of the Christian, Jewish, Hindu or Sikh gods?
You'd have a job finding any comment from me defending any religion anywhere so I don't know where you're going with that. Unless you think killings in the name of religion are just one of those things that nobody should mention because they're a bit embarrassing. Let's respect religions and not mention that people kill because of it?

However I distinguish between the religion along with all its symbols, including its leader(s) who to me are fair game, and conflating the worst aspects of a religion with all the people who happened to be born into a family that practise that religion, or even just a family that used to practise it.

Because that's what the Jewish stereotype is doing - it's not about religious Jews, never mind being about Judaism (which has plenty to criticise in it too, or at least Orthodox Judaism does), it's pretending that all people of Jewish heritage, including the atheists among them) share a set of particularly unpleasant traits such as avarice.

It's got literally nothing to do with what happened at Charlie Hebdo, where secular Muslims were equally targeted by the Islamists. Two people of Muslim heritage were among the dead (a police officer and a copy writer at CH).

You think your cartoonist would feel he had anything in common with secular Jews? He wouldn't - because that is a racist cartoon. The other is an anti religious one. Its author shared his workspace with secular Muslims.
 

Kevin Parlon

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
13,295
Twitter
Deiscirt
This is a anti-Semitic trope and is not allowed under free speech.

Jew_1_0_0.png
Oh, it's allowed all right. The consequences are just different.
 

yosef shompeter

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
Messages
3,040
Which "extremists" are you talking about?

CH took the view that freedom of speech is non existent if one can only say consensual things that annoy nobody, and that this right needs to be "road tested" regularly to ensure that it's still true.

The reality of course is, as Zineb El Rhazoui said several years before the CH attack, that it's perfectly okay to offend, say, Christians, just for the sake of it, but not okay to offend Muslims.

IOW your suggestion is not a general "let's not offend people", just "let's not offend people who are likely to be violent". Unless you think the Life of Brian and Father Ted were also made by extremists?
You put it all a nutshell -- and quite beautifully too.
Freedom of speech means nothing if that what you are allowed express is only what's been approved by the government... like you're allowed chirrup : "God save the Queen" in Belfast or that.
The thing is though, that Government must and should have the monopoly on the use of force to carry out the law and or protect freedoms. To have some religious followers enforcing their rules makes a complete joke of the right to freedom of expression.
Buachall Dana's notion of the press going by "a question of balance " ? I find that hard to imagine in practice. I refer to the examples in Pakistan where all sorts of poor creatures have been imprisoned and or killed due to the "Generous" interpretation of the blasphemy laws in that country. One woman recently came over to the West claiming for asylum on account of it. I believe her claim was justified. Humming and hawing over each news article and putting it before a board of "experts".... I can see problems arising. And the criteria change over time. What one religion might find offensive or blasphemous might completely acceptable and normal in another religion.
"What's a sacrilege south of the Pyraneees may be a sacrament further north.

We had the luxury of being able to put all this on the back burner for the past five years. Now that Charlie Hebdo has republished the cartoons it has all become kind of urgent and pressing.
Unless of course the Islamic community just ignore it all and carry on.
Vain hope, I suppose.
 

Levellers

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
14,796
How many staff members of French magazines have been shot to death by extremists from any of those religions?
Have you forgotten already the pogrom against Catholics in our own country in recent years? For God and Ulster!
 

petaljam

Moderator
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Messages
34,638
Have you forgotten already the pogrom against Catholics in our own country in recent years? For God and Ulster!
You think the Northern Ireland conflict was actually about religion?

What sort of reception do you think converts to the Church of Ireland would get from the UVF?
 

Glenshane4

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 5, 2012
Messages
10,415
You think the Northern Ireland conflict was actually about religion?

What sort of reception do you think converts to the Church of Ireland would get from the UVF?
With the Prods, the conflict in Northern Ireland was very much about religion and the defending of Prod privilege..

Many members of the Church of Ireland supported the UVF. On Easter Tuesday of 1970, a Church of Ireland clergyman told a gathering of Junior Orangemen "The RC Church is wicked and evil." He remained in post until his death about 30 years later.
 

petaljam

Moderator
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Messages
34,638
With the Prods, the conflict in Northern Ireland was very much about religion and the defending of Prod privilege..

Many members of the Church of Ireland supported the UVF. On Easter Tuesday of 1970, a Church of Ireland clergyman told a gathering of Junior Orangemen "The RC Church is wicked and evil." He remained in post until his death about 30 years later.
Defending privilege, absolutely. Of course the Kouachi brothers, brought up in care, had no privilege to defend, so not really comparable in that either.

Defending Protestantism though, not so much. Converts to Islam are among the most extreme Islamists. A Catholic convert to the Church of Ireland, as I said before, would get short shrift from the UVF.

(Do you have software on your PC that triggers an alarm for you when someone mentions Catholics in Northern Ireland? It's hilarious how you turn up like that.)
 

Glaucon

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
8,694
And a link to an article she wrote in 2013, well before the killings, in response to an allegation that she was being racist in her criticism of Islam in Charlie Hebdo : If Charlie Hebdo is racist, then so am I — Zineb el-Rhazoui responds to Olivier Cyran | The Charnel-House

(It's within the article I've linked to, as El Rhazoui's original doesn't seem to be widely available in English in its own right, but both are worth reading IMO.)
Zineb el-Rhazoui is a foam at the mouth loon closely associated with, and supported by, the French far right. She has, over time, viciously attacked practicing Muslim women who wear the veil as Islamists and active threats to France, lambasted young people from the suburbs of North African descent, without distinction, as ''racaille'' and Arabic-speakers (despite being Moroccan herself) as threats. She has compared Islam to the Nazi occupation of France and referred to respected journalist Jean-Michel Aphatie as a ''collabo''. Indeed, in late 2019 she called for police to use live bullets in the suburbs.

She is usually to be seen on channels like CNews spouting wild conspiracy theories and her Twitter feed is a gutter. It's a indictment of French political discourse that she gets any attention at all.
 

Levellers

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
14,796
You think the Northern Ireland conflict was actually about religion?

What sort of reception do you think converts to the Church of Ireland would get from the UVF?
I didn't say the war was about religion. It wasn't. I said the British controlled militias killed Catholics in the name of 'God and Ulster'.
 

Glaucon

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
8,694
The reality of course is, as Zineb El Rhazoui said several years before the CH attack, that it's perfectly okay to offend, say, Christians, just for the sake of it, but not okay to offend Muslims.
Mind-boggling nonsense. If it weren't for regular controversies around Islam and assorted threats (mostly wholly imaginary, like the Burkini nonsense), many French media outlets would struggle to attract viewers.

And as for it being okay to offend Christians, I'm old enough to remember things like this:

 

petaljam

Moderator
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Messages
34,638
Zineb el-Rhazoui is a foam at the mouth loon closely associated with, and supported by, the French far right. She has, over time, viciously attacked practicing Muslim women who wear the veil as Islamists and active threats to France, lambasted young people from the suburbs of North African descent, without distinction distinction, as ''racaille'' and Arabic-speakers (despite being Moroccan herself) as threats. She has compared Islam to the Nazi occupation of France and referred to respected journalist Jean-Michel Aphatie as a ''collabo''. Indeed, in late 2019 she called for police to use live bullets in the suburbs.

She is usually to be seen on channels like CNews spouting wild conspiracy theories and her Twitter feed is a gutter. It's a indictment of French political discourse that she gets any attention at all.
That's a lie. She certainly went too far in that interview on C News IMO (and sometimes on Twitter, as with the Aphatie thing, which was basically just a hashtag) but she didn't make that comment without distinction as you claim and she didn't apply it to North African youth in particular. It was in the context of riots and people throwing missiles at the police.


As she says herself, it's fine to be violently anti christian - some people are proud to be virulently anti clerical in France, and the Catholic church hasn't posed any threat to anyone for generations. You hear it in Ireland too now. But for someone brought up as a Muslim to decide that she hates Islam, somehow that puts her out on the margins of society.

Why is that.
 

petaljam

Moderator
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Messages
34,638
I didn't say the war was about religion. It wasn't. I said the British controlled militias killed Catholics in the name of 'God and Ulster'.
So that's irrelevant then. God is regularly cited in lots of things, including various constitutions and rituals that have nothing to do with religion.

Whereas Islamic terrorists believe that they are actually going to convert to world to Islam, and that it's fine to punish or kill anyone who won't convert.
 

Glaucon

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
8,694
You've no idea what you're talking about. Unlike you, I've seen what she has written on Twitter where she has, repeatedly, referred to people living in the suburbs as ''racaille'' without qualification and listened to her hate speech on French TV. Do some research on this person before holding her up as a paragon of virtue. She is a deeply, deeply troubled individual who foments horrendous hatred against French Muslims.
 

petaljam

Moderator
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Messages
34,638
Mind-boggling nonsense. If it weren't for regular controversies around Islam and assorted threats (mostly wholly imaginary, like the Burkini nonsense), many French media outlets would struggle to attract viewers.

And as for it being okay to offend Christians, I'm old enough to remember things like this:

Do you have a point here?
 

petaljam

Moderator
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Messages
34,638
You've no idea what you're talking about. Unlike you, I've seen what she has written on Twitter and listened to her hate speech on French TV. Do some research on this person before holding her up as a paragon of virtue. She is a deeply, deeply troubled individual who foments horrendous hatred against French Muslims.
Right. John Waters and Iona say much the same about ex Catholics. The victimisation complex by religious fanatics who start to lose control of their former members is always amusing to watch. It's a shame you can't see that it's the exact same process except that unlike former catholics she is being threatened with being killed.

But she's the baddie in this, in your eyes.
 

Glaucon

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
8,694
Right. John Waters and Iona say much the same about ex Catholics. The victimisation complex by religious fanatics who start to lose control of their former members is always amusing to watch. It's a shame you can't see that it's the exact same process except that unlike former catholics she is being threatened with being killed.

But she's the baddie in this, in your eyes.
Good grief, this is becoming mind-numbing. Listen, if you think that mothers wearing a veil who accompany children on school outings are ''Islamist propagandists'', ''proselytizers'' and ''a direct threat to the Republic'', as that odious woman claims, good luck to you. This article neatly encapsulates the deeply unpleasant methods employed by that loon and her friends on the right and far-right regarding anyone who challenges their Islamo-gauchiste-collabo ravings:

 

New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top Bottom