Hagia Sofia is a mosque - again

McTell

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Pope 'very distressed' over Turkey's Hagia Sophia conversion to mosque


There's a fuss about nothing here, the building was a cathedral in good standing with rome up to 1053. Then greek to 1453. Then a mosque until 1938, then a museum, now in 2020 a mosque.

The world was made by god in 4004 bc, HS was built in 537 ad, after a gap of 4,541 years of not being used as anything much.

Then in 1053 came the great schism and this cathedral that had been in good standing with rome, and paying its dues, became a greek orthodox cathedral. Then in 1453 the muslim turks took the city and made it a mosque. Until 1938 when ataturk made it a museum.

If we do a x per approx century since 50AD, when the jesus story was being sold...

xxxxx - nothing much happening there at all

xxxxx - roman cathedral

xxxx - greek orthodox cathedral

xxxxx - muslim mosque

x - museum

It was OK for a pagan site to become a christian church straight away, but seemingly pope francis is invested in this building that rome hasn't had any control over for the last 1,000 years.

What is a reasonable time after you sell a property that you should have some say in how it is managed?
 


Sync

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Yeah I'd be sanguine about it. I've been there and it's beautiful. But one of the things that makes the buildings in the region so beautiful is the centuries of integrating different cultural and religious architecture. This is just another chapter in that.
 

Trampas

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Pope 'very distressed' over Turkey's Hagia Sophia conversion to mosque


There's a fuss about nothing here, the building was a cathedral in good standing with rome up to 1053. Then greek to 1453. Then a mosque until 1938, then a museum, now in 2020 a mosque.

The world was made by god in 4004 bc, HS was built in 537 ad, after a gap of 4,541 years of not being used as anything much.

Then in 1053 came the great schism and this cathedral that had been in good standing with rome, and paying its dues, became a greek orthodox cathedral. Then in 1453 the muslim turks took the city and made it a mosque. Until 1938 when ataturk made it a museum.

If we do a x per approx century since 50AD, when the jesus story was being sold...

xxxxx - nothing much happening there at all

xxxxx - roman cathedral

xxxx - greek orthodox cathedral

xxxxx - muslim mosque

x - museum

It was OK for a pagan site to become a christian church straight away, but seemingly pope francis is invested in this building that rome hasn't had any control over for the last 1,000 years.

What is a reasonable time after you sell a property that you should have some say in how it is managed?
Hard to answer that last question. It would depend on whether the owner received an offer he couldn't refuse.
 

former wesleyan

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Erdogan issued 2 statements. The one in English stressed respect for all religions and how non-Muslims would be welcomed. The one in Turkish said that this was the first step in reclaiming the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. He fancies hisself as caliph does the lad.
 

bob3344

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At least it shows Turkey in its true colours & makes EU membership more unlikely
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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What next?

During its previous as a Mosque, Hagia Sophia's icons and mosaics were plastered over (which explains in part the state of preservation). Now, we are told, curtains, carpets and 'light-based technology' will suffice. For how long?

The up-side may be that the tourist income and symbolism is so massive, the Turkish state can hardly afford to lose completely the largesse of the Byzantines. And, of course, there were previous re-occupations, as at Panagia Chrysokephalos/Fatih Mosque at Trebizond — but those are less on the beaten track for Western tourists.
 

Trampas

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Erdogan issued 2 statements. The one in English stressed respect for all religions and how non-Muslims would be welcomed. The one in Turkish said that this was the first step in reclaiming the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. He fancies hisself as caliph does the lad.
Perhaps he means east Jerusalem......or more likely the entire state of Israel. Temple Mount is currently administered by Jordan.
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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Erdogan issued 2 statements. The one in English stressed respect for all religions and how non-Muslims would be welcomed. The one in Turkish said that this was the first step in reclaiming the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. He fancies hisself as caliph does the lad.
The Dome of the Rock is, as it always has been, an Islamic shrine. It can hardly be 'reclaimed'. If Erdoğan includes the Western Wall as part of his intended annexation, that's a very different matter.
 

Trampas

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I wouldnt bet on it.It would be considered racist to deny the Turks membership of the EU.
It would appear that Turkish EU membership talks are stalled......but not terminated. Having an irascible islamist as the most powerful person in the EU probably has a certain appeal.......somewhere.
 

Trampas

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The Dome of the Rock is, as it always has been, an Islamic shrine. It can hardly be 'reclaimed'. If Erdoğan includes the Western Wall as part of his intended annexation, that's a very different matter.
Indeed it is. Some things will never be negotiable.
 

wombat

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It would appear that Turkish EU membership talks are stalled....
They lost interest around the time of the EU banking problems. I wonder will they stop the restoration works on the wall paintings? I was pretty underwhelmed by the building, the domed roof is impressive but not a lot to see otherwise.
 

wombat

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Its getting harder to maintain the fiction that Turkey is a liberal Islamic country
I spent a few months working there in 2014, there is a huge division between the west/cities and the rest of the country. My impression of Erdogan is that he's like a Turkish Charlie Haughey, a crook and a hypocrite, uses religion as a cover for nest feathering.
 

Trampas

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I spent a few months working there in 2014, there is a huge division between the west/cities and the rest of the country. My impression of Erdogan is that he's like a Turkish Charlie Haughey, a crook and a hypocrite, uses religion as a cover for nest feathering.
Apparently Erdogan is a dollar billionaire (that's a "b"), as is his predecessor Abdullah Gul, largely on the strength of Saudi investment in Turkey.
 

Hillmanhunter1

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I've been there, and it is a beautiful building. I would be a little concerned that, if it is to be a mosque again, access (particularly to non-Muslims) might be restricted. On balance however it is a relatively trivial matter, an action taken by a populist leader to deflect attention from failures elsewhere.

I have also been to the astonishingly beautiful Mezquita in Cordoba, a former mosque, and now a Catholic Cathedral:

Mezquita.jpg
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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Hillmanhunter1, post #17, makes a neat correspondence.

The Mezquita, built as a Mosque, is closed to tourists while and whenever church business is conducted. Which is inconvenient, at best, to the casual tourist. I wasn't greatly taken by the sixteenth century additions and later embellishments, seeing the point of Emperor Charles' comment: "You have destroyed something unique to build something commonplace". And even less so by the two crass and prominent memorials, either side of the chancel, to the RC 'martyrs' of the Civil War.

Since Abd ar-Rahman (758-88) did the decent thing and purchased the Visigothic church of St Vincent, it occurs to me Islam has a better claim to (parts of) the Mezquita than trippers have to the Hagia Sophia.
 

Clanrickard

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Erdogan issued 2 statements. The one in English stressed respect for all religions and how non-Muslims would be welcomed. The one in Turkish said that this was the first step in reclaiming the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. He fancies hisself as caliph does the lad.
I am not sanguine about this at all. Turkey should face some sanction for what is a provocative move. If Bibi and his gang decided to flatten the AL Aqsa Mosque and rebuild the temple what would be Erdogan's reaction. This is also a UNESCO heritage site.
 

Malcolm Redfellow

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I am not sanguine about this at all. Turkey should face some sanction for what is a provocative move.
Hold on! Let's not get too choleric.

When I was in Hagia Sophia, many Islamic symbols were grandly displayed. The Mihrab was marked out, with two huge candlesticks (plunder from Suleyman the Magnificent's campaign in Hungary) and surrounded by inscriptions. The windows are explicitly Islamic. After all, it previously served exclusively as a mosque over 480 years. Provided the non-Moslem visitors still have access — as is the case for the Blue Mosque, what's lost?
If Bibi and his gang decided to flatten the AL Aqsa Mosque and rebuild the temple what would be Erdogan's reaction.
Probably not greatly more incensed than the rest of us.

Just as long as we bear in mind that, even before Covid-19, access to the Al-Aqsa Mosque was severely and officially restricted. But not by the Grand Mufti.
This is also a UNESCO heritage site.
On the matter of UNESCO sites, clean hands seem to be the exception, not the rule. I trust we shall not forget Seymour Sweeney's attempt to 'privatise' the Giant's Causeway. Nor the Stonehenge tunnel.
 


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