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Has mass immigration been a net burden on Ireland?


Breadan O'Connor

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I heard Dermot Ahern on Radio saying that the government will spend 56 billion in the next year but taxes will only bring in 42 billion.

It's clear that the government's commitments have increased far beyond it's ability to pay for them. Considering that many immigrants have only low paid jobs yet require access to healthcare, education, child allowance etc, then it could be argued that they are a significant cost on government finances.

We were told by establishment commentators in recent years that immigrants were good for the Irish economy but now that our boom based on borrowed money is well and truly over I wonder if that really holds true?
 

riven

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The economy increased strongly over the last decade and a half mainly due to immegration. Without the extra approx 15% population (est last pps figures), foreign multinational companies and foreign investment, we would not have an economy to recess from. Please remember that immegrant companies are some of our biggest employers!
Our problem mirrors many others. We overspend on grandious ideas and lifstyles without investing in infastructure and saving.
 
Last edited:

Odyessus

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The economy increased strongly over the last decade and a half mainly due to immegration. Without the extra approx 15%, foreign multinational companies and foreign investment, we would not have an economy to recess from. Please remember that immegrant companies are some of our biggest employers!
Our problem mirrors many others. We overspend on grandious ideas and lifstyles without investing in infastructure and saving.

Increased immigration was due to the booming economy, not the other way round. Just as the decrease in immigration we are now experiencing is not the cause of the present recession, but the result of it.
 
G

Gimpanzee

You want to know if an immigrant population with a demographic profile skewed hugely towards young single working men and women, with almost no elderly dependents and few child dependents were good for the economy?

Listen closely - it is simple - it is the Paddies who are solely to blame. If you cannot accept this fact and are looking for scapegoats you need an almighty kick up the hole - it is morons like this that will make sure that we learn nothing from this crisis and prolong the downturn.

The took out car loans, daft mortgates, two-holidays a year and ran the arse of the credit card. The self-styled uber-Paddies in FF encouraged these same witless fools who responded in kind by voting FF. Anyone who actually believed that we were the richest people in Europe, and lived their life as though they were is to blame.
 

McDave

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Low pay for young workers who don't use the health system? Sounds like a good deal for Ireland's skinflint employers and greedy landlords.

As I see it, the main downside for us is that a lot of immigrants will have seen what a botch-job we made of our economy. Countries like Poland will know first-hand from innumerable witnesses that if they get their act together they'll not see any competition from us.

Meanwhile back in the Celtic Vulture, whingers about the rapidly-departing new accession immigrants can revert to the time-honoured practice of 1980s Ireland - moaning into their pints.
 

Breadan O'Connor

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You want to know if an immigrant population with a demographic profile skewed hugely towards young single working men and women, with almost no elderly dependents and few child dependents were good for the economy?.
Last year we had a record 72,000 babies born, of which I believe one in every six were born to non-national parents.

It's hardly true to say that they have few child dependents.
 
G

Gimpanzee

Last year we had a record 72,000 babies born, of which I believe one in every six were born to non-national parents.

It's hardly true to say that they have few child dependents.
Oh, its true alright - because one-in-three people between the ages of 25-44 are non-nationals (2006 census).
 

myksav

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breadan O'Connor
Last year we had a record 72,000 babies born, of which I believe one in every six were born to non-national parents.

It's hardly true to say that they have few child dependents.

Oh, its true alright - because one-in-three people between the ages of 25-44 are non-nationals (2006 census).
That one-in-three between 25-44 being non-nationals. Interesting, but not all of them are single. Many of them are married, either with spouse in their own home country or with them here. Marrying age tends to be much lower than it is here as well.
 

DaBrow

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Fact remains that after a roller-coaster ride that lasted 15 years, we have one hell of a rotten hangover to care of.

A Booming economy that was really little more than a generous overdraft has weakened our country more than ever........... compared to strengthening it.

The number of Foreign Nationals in this country is far too high for a country of our population............ compared to the rest of europe we have had half a century of immigration per head in a little more over a decade.

Most of the money that is generated by foreign nationals actually leaves the country than stays in it.

I remember reading in FHM that Polish Immigration as an example has generated about £300million for Britain but they send £3 Billion to their homeland.......... this was back in January.

We were never prepared for or wanted the chaos and catastrophe that Mass-Immigration has impacted Ireland socially & economically...................... I only feel sorry for those who worked hard and contributed because they were seen only as economic units...............never as human beings.

I think its going to get really nasty soon........ and I don't want to see the consequences of irresponsible governce that we have seen for the last 15 years.

More & more people want Ireland to be given back to the Irish.............. fears of losing our treasured Identity are rising faster than we first thought.
 

Breadan O'Connor

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Fact remains that after a roller-coaster ride that lasted 15 years, we have one hell of a rotten hangover to care of.

A Booming economy that was really little more than a generous overdraft has weakened our country more than ever........... compared to strengthening it.

The number of Foreign Nationals in this country is far too high for a country of our population............ compared to the rest of europe we have had half a century of immigration per head in a little more over a decade.

Most of the money that is generated by foreign nationals actually leaves the country than stays in it.

I remember reading in FHM that Polish Immigration as an example has generated about £300million for Britain but they send £3 Billion to their homeland.......... this was back in January.

We were never prepared for or wanted the chaos and catastrophe that Mass-Immigration has impacted Ireland socially & economically...................... I only feel sorry for those who worked hard and contributed because they were seen only as economic units...............never as human beings.

I think its going to get really nasty soon........ and I don't want to see the consequences of irresponsible governce that we have seen for the last 15 years.

More & more people want Ireland to be given back to the Irish.............. fears of losing our treasured Identity are rising faster than we first thought.
The next couple of years in Ireland will be truly terrible with inadequate funding for health, education, and social welfare.

On top of that the government may have to recapitalize the banks with billions.

Blame for the mess lies with the government and corporate interests who pushed the credit boom to the limit.
 

SJL4277

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afaik theres a foreign labour force of about 370,000 out of about 480,000 foreigners, which is a much higher percentage than the native population-so they do have relatively few dependents here. But many have plently of dependents outside the country. If this group were to spend their money here or save it to invest here or start businesses then they would be extremely beneficial. But many don't. Many work and save as much as possible with the intention of spending it back home or building or owning a house. This haemorhaege of cash out of the country mighn't have been too bad when the economy was in danger of overheating but now repatriation of wages is surely harming domestic demand.
 

McDave

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afaik theres a foreign labour force of about 370,000 out of about 480,000 foreigners, which is a much higher percentage than the native population-so they do have relatively few dependents here. But many have plently of dependents outside the country. If this group were to spend their money here or save it to invest here or start businesses then they would be extremely beneficial. But many don't. Many work and save as much as possible with the intention of spending it back home or building or owning a house. This haemorhaege of cash out of the country mighn't have been too bad when the economy was in danger of overheating but now repatriation of wages is surely harming domestic demand.
Many of them are saving towards deposits for apts back home. The operative word here is "saving". This is something we didn't do much of outside the SSIA free money offer. Our plunge into indebtedness is really our own fault and a much greater drag on domestic demand at this point in time than the prudent behaviour of what is still a small (and underearning) part of our labour force.
 

Trampas

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afaik theres a foreign labour force of about 370,000 out of about 480,000 foreigners, which is a much higher percentage than the native population-so they do have relatively few dependents here. But many have plently of dependents outside the country. If this group were to spend their money here or save it to invest here or start businesses then they would be extremely beneficial. But many don't. Many work and save as much as possible with the intention of spending it back home or building or owning a house. This haemorhaege of cash out of the country mighn't have been too bad when the economy was in danger of overheating but now repatriation of wages is surely harming domestic demand.
Not to mention the repatriation of child benefits for children who have never set foot in this country and who may or may not belong to the claimant. Of course this particular EU entitlement came as a complete surprise to the FF/PD govt. Needless to say that surprise was denied.
 

Libero

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afaik theres a foreign labour force of about 370,000 out of about 480,000 foreigners, which is a much higher percentage than the native population-so they do have relatively few dependents here. But many have plently of dependents outside the country. If this group were to spend their money here or save it to invest here or start businesses then they would be extremely beneficial. But many don't. Many work and save as much as possible with the intention of spending it back home or building or owning a house. This haemorhaege of cash out of the country mighn't have been too bad when the economy was in danger of overheating but now repatriation of wages is surely harming domestic demand.
I think we all accept that immigrants save some of their wages and send it out of the country. Although us Paddies do (or did) something similar with our grá for overseas property, and we're grateful when those overseas send money here.

But what percentage of immigrants' wages do you think ever left the country?

I know a few immigrant workers and while some of them are very frugal and make sure to scrimp and save, it's as much a result of our high cost of living as it is a desire to shovel lots of cash "back home". Many talk of bringing new language and work skills back home, not pots of cash; they're not paid enough to make any pots of cash.

And if we somehow do arrive at an estimate of that "haemorhaege of cash", what number do we put on the contribution made by immigrants towards aggregate demand in the economy, both by way of being consumers and - as taxpayers, employees and entrepreneurs - enabling other economic activity?

It seems to me that if we don't have the data - or don't even make a coherent effort to engage in reasoned estimates - then anyone supporting the thrust of this thread will come close to the worst stereotype of the anti-immigrant, i.e. wanting them out for the sake of it, but justifying the sentiment by dubious reference to economic impacts, the burden on social services, crime, etc.
 

Keith-M

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The number of Foreign Nationals in this country is far too high for a country of our population............ compared to the rest of europe we have had half a century of immigration per head in a little more over a decade.

Most of the money that is generated by foreign nationals actually leaves the country than stays in it.

I remember reading in FHM that Polish Immigration as an example has generated about £300million for Britain but they send £3 Billion to their homeland.......... this was back in January.
Firstly, we have one of the lowest population densities in Europe. The idea that we have "far too many" non nationals is ridiculous.

Secondly the idea that most of the money is sent back to the source country is also clearly nonsense. Try living in this country, paying for food, clothing and a roof over your head. Then try to do it on lower wage levels and see how much money you have left over.
 

Aindriu

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Jun 28, 2007
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You want to know if an immigrant population with a demographic profile skewed hugely towards young single working men and women, with almost no elderly dependents and few child dependents were good for the economy?

Listen closely - it is simple - it is the Paddies who are solely to blame. If you cannot accept this fact and are looking for scapegoats you need an almighty kick up the hole - it is morons like this that will make sure that we learn nothing from this crisis and prolong the downturn.

The took out car loans, daft mortgates, two-holidays a year and ran the arse of the credit card. The self-styled uber-Paddies in FF encouraged these same witless fools who responded in kind by voting FF. Anyone who actually believed that we were the richest people in Europe, and lived their life as though they were is to blame.
Well said!
 

Aindriu

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More & more people want Ireland to be given back to the Irish.............. fears of losing our treasured Identity are rising faster than we first thought.
Which is probably the main reason we voted No to Lisbon.
 

Breadan O'Connor

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Firstly, we have one of the lowest population densities in Europe. The idea that we have "far too many" non nationals is ridiculous.
Our population increased probably faster than any European country in the last decade in percent terms.

Our government now cannot pay for it's commitments and relies on borrowing.

I remember when Brian Lenihan snr said "it's a small island, we can't all live here".

FF were happy to let Irish people emigrate and then a decade later they let in immigrants to fuel the boom for their developer friends.
 

2muchfastfood

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Compared to other countries our population density is far below the average and we are well down the list. To a certain extent it shows why there was a building boom, there was a housing shortage - although admittedly we then got a building industry that completely lost the run of its self and spiralled out of all control but thats discussion for another post.

List of countries and dependencies by population density - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The inflow of workers wasnt a luxury we could have afforded to do without, foreign nationals are still running our hospitals, nursing homes, and service industries, with no "irish" replacements queuing up to take the jobs. Like it or not they are integral to our economy as is their spending power even while they are sending some dosh home (like the irish did for years in the USA), day to day spending still keeps money at home and in circulation. The idea that Ireland should be "given back to the Irish" is outdated pog wash, we wouldnt have ever got so ever without outside assistance, we should be trying to learn from the mistakes of other countries handling of immigration issues rather than trying to create our own (mistakes).
 
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