Have you ever heard of an economic system called "Participatory Economics"



vanla sighs

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complicated and idealistic but probably makes some sense
I'm not sure how complicated it is really, when you look at where the capitalism we have now has gotten us? Idealistic, yes - but anything that seeks to create a fairer society and a new economic model is always going to be termed "idealistic" I guess, we need idealism for change.
 

captainwillard

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I'm not sure how complicated it is really, when you look at where the capitalism we have now has gotten us? Idealistic, yes - but anything that seeks to create a fairer society and a new economic model is always going to be termed "idealistic" I guess, we need idealism for change.[/QUOT

Idealim is what is required? Good economic management is required. Reationalist economics and a healthy dose of pragmatism and ruthlessness will solve more than some daft idea straight from a university lecture.
 

vanla sighs

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I'm not sure how complicated it is really, when you look at where the capitalism we have now has gotten us? Idealistic, yes - but anything that seeks to create a fairer society and a new economic model is always going to be termed "idealistic" I guess, we need idealism for change.[/QUOT

Idealim is what is required? Good economic management is required. Reationalist economics and a healthy dose of pragmatism and ruthlessness will solve more than some daft idea straight from a university lecture.
We were told that pumping (dumping?) billions into the banks would save us, we were told this was a pragmatic approach - not so. You talk of "ruthlessness", billions have been taken out of the economy yet still further down into the mire we go...........We do need idealism, we certinly could do with a new economic system, by the way I am not saying that the Participatory Economic model is it but it could be.

Look at what capitalism has done? Look at what capitalism and the free market is doing? Eurozone countries such as Ireland and Portugal are under attack from the capitalist financial markets - Spain and Italy could be next, when the financial markets smell blood they go in for the kill, this is their modus operandi. Seems this is a model you approve of.

As for your assertion that PE is "some daft idea straight from a university lecture", not sure what you mean. Capitalism and free markets are taught at university lectures, socialism is thought at university lectures. The YouTube video is simply an explanation of how one economic model works, that is all.
 

ifreannach

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We were told that pumping (dumping?) billions into the banks would save us, we were told this was a pragmatic approach - not so. You talk of "ruthlessness", billions have been taken out of the economy yet still further down into the mire we go...........We do need idealism, we certinly could do with a new economic system, by the way I am not saying that the Participatory Economic model is it but it could be.

Look at what capitalism has done? Look at what capitalism and the free market is doing? Eurozone countries such as Ireland and Portugal are under attack from the capitalist financial markets - Spain and Italy could be next, when the financial markets smell blood they go in for the kill, this is their modus operandi. Seems this is a model you approve of.

As for your assertion that PE is "some daft idea straight from a university lecture", not sure what you mean. Capitalism and free markets are taught at university lectures, socialism is thought at university lectures. The YouTube video is simply an explanation of how one economic model works, that is all.
+1
 

captainwillard

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We were told that pumping (dumping?) billions into the banks would save us, we were told this was a pragmatic approach - not so. You talk of "ruthlessness", billions have been taken out of the economy yet still further down into the mire we go...........We do need idealism, we certinly could do with a new economic system, by the way I am not saying that the Participatory Economic model is it but it could be.

Look at what capitalism has done? Look at what capitalism and the free market is doing? Eurozone countries such as Ireland and Portugal are under attack from the capitalist financial markets - Spain and Italy could be next, when the financial markets smell blood they go in for the kill, this is their modus operandi. Seems this is a model you approve of.

As for your assertion that PE is "some daft idea straight from a university lecture", not sure what you mean. Capitalism and free markets are taught at university lectures, socialism is thought at university lectures. The YouTube video is simply an explanation of how one economic model works, that is all.
Capitalism taught in university? Go to a street trader in Nairobi and ask him about capitalism. He won't know what you are talking about but he will know that he wants to make money on the next sale.

Oh and capitalism did not get us where er are now. Poor regulation and weak governance have caused the current economic disaster.
 

Superlepreachaun

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OP, you dont know what you are talking about. Anyone who thinks he have free markets needs to look the term up.
I love the idea OP but do you think the plutocracy currenly ruling the world will allow it? Would take some serious changes to make it happen.

As for the free market...it doens't exist, has never existed and CANNOT exist.
The closest we came to a true free market was neoliberal economics from 80s to the present, and it all ended in tears in 2008, so clearly wasn't the best model to follow.
There is one good thing tho, we can never be lectured by the usual suspects on free market economics again, not when the biggest plutocrats on the planet came to big government like whiney little bitches when their business ventures (if you can call wild gambling a business venture) failed and begging and pleading for a welfare cheque.
 

captainwillard

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OP, you dont know what you are talking about. Anyone who thinks he have free markets needs to look the term up.
We had centrally agreed wage increases for years in this country. The social welfare system was featherbedded and there was poor regulation.

The OP is confused and now wants to curse us with idealism. Please spare me from the curse of idealism which must surely be the last refuge of every fool.
 

vanla sighs

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Capitalism taught in university? Go to a street trader in Nairobi and ask him about capitalism. He won't know what you are talking about but he will know that he wants to make money on the next sale.

Oh and capitalism did not get us where er are now. Poor regulation and weak governance have caused the current economic disaster.
The capitalist financial markets are attacking Ireland and Portugal, Spain and Italy are most likely next. And it was capitalism coupled with light touch regualtion and an inept, incapable, discredited government which has gotten us to the stage we're at now. Had we been opertating under a system other than the capitalist model we would never even had need for the bank bailouts in the first place. Capitalism created the conditions for the mess we're in today.

And now we have the IMF here dictating the way forward, another great capitalist institution.
 

Superlepreachaun

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Every idea starts out as idealism, if you just dismiss it because it sounds too good then no progress of any kind would ever be made. Its an idea that works for individual companies the only question is how to apply it to a national level.
I don't think this constant self flagellation the western worlds going through where we think the only way of life is to be ruled by vicious plutocrats is very helpful, and clearly its not working out very well for us.
 

vanla sighs

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We had centrally agreed wage increases for years in this country. The social welfare system was featherbedded and there was poor regulation.

The OP is confused and now wants to curse us with idealism. Please spare me from the curse of idealism which must surely be the last refuge of every fool.
Lol, I'm confused. No, not quite. If you are too wrapped up in yourelf to see the possibility of change then fine, stay cocooned in your own ignorance. You readily dismiss idealism while forgetting that it was idealism which established this Republic. Everything is based upon an ideal to one extent or another whether conservative rightwing economics or what no doubt you'd term leftie nutcase wooly jumper politics.

The social welfare system in Ireland was not and is not "featherbedded". In fact if you care to check the comparitive figures you'll see that Ireland in fact spends less per capita on social welfare and social services than almost any other western European country, we already spend les than the UK, less than Germany etc etc. While at the same time we have some of the highest costs for everyday living within western Europe. We also have one of the the lowest tax regimes in western Europe, if not the actual lowest.
 
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vanla sighs

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by complicated I mean the transition from our current shambles to something like PE.
Yeah, you're right. Moving from one discredited system to an untried system would be no easy task.
 

Superlepreachaun

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Yeah, you're right. Moving from one discredited system to an untried system would be no easy task.
Well its been tried in the sense that many large and very profitable companies use it. The questions are only relating to mechanics such as:

Is the op suggesting a company by company thing? as in more companies be run like this? or a law passing requiring all companies to run like this, and how would that affect multinationals etc how would the plutocrats that have their workforces existing to serve them and them alone react to a takeover of the company or economy by employees and having the cash they were gonna spend on that new boat being paid equally among the staff and reinvested into the company.

Its not a matter of weither or not it works, it does, the only real question is how and if were ready for a new model, I dont think people are quite pissed off enough yet at the current model to provide the demand for a new system. They may well be soon tho
 

vanla sighs

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OP, you dont know what you are talking about. Anyone who thinks he have free markets needs to look the term up.
I stand corrected, you're right. The words "free market" and "capitalism" however are commonly used interchangably even if not exactly correct. But I'm not going to get into an argument about semantics or how words are percieved vis a vis their true meaning.
 

PAD1OH

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Yeah, you're right. Moving from one discredited system to an untried system would be no easy task.
even though we are going through a major debacle i don't see a wide debate in Ireland on economic reform.


everyone is obsessed with FF/IMF/EU/Anglo as opposed to the real fundamentals of the problem
 

Superlepreachaun

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even though we are going through a major debacle i don't see a wide debate in Ireland on economic reform.


everyone is obsessed with FF/IMF/EU/Anglo as opposed to the real fundamentals of the problem
Isn't that it though? Were all integrated into one global market now, so any real radical economic reforms would need to take place at the very minimum at EU level at the very best global level.
The EU parliament not having power to initiate legislation, the treaty forming process being one of smoke filled backrooms, the two key players in the EU being unelected and the EU being full of lobbyists for the very intrests that would be threatened by any progressive economic reforms kinda forms a major barrier to this.
 


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