Hawe family deaths inquest.


Emily Davison

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There are no surviving victims in this case.

You are refusing to use the dead woman’s name which was Clodagh Hawe.

You are refusing to acknowledge the dead woman’s religion which was Irish Catholic.

You are refusing to respect her Irish catholic marriage vows ‘for better or worse, in sickness and in health, until death do us part’.

Perhaps she would have wanted to be buried with her husband.

You certainly are not in a position to decide.
So a woman murdered by her husband, who also murdered her three children would want to be buried with the monster who murdered them all. That’s your beef?

He was, now he’s not, want to start a petition to exhume him again and return him with his victims?
 

Baron von Biffo

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I linked to it, and bolded it. You even quoted it.

Real ones are sufficient.
Prior to this post I had 16 posts in this thread. None of them criticised the families, none of them makes any reference to donations made in memory of any of the victims of this tragedy.

You can't post a link that shows otherwise.

I really don't know what it is you hope to gain by making up claims that are so simple to expose as untrue.
 

petaljam

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Prior to this post I had 16 posts in this thread. None of them criticised the families, none of them makes any reference to donations made in memory of any of the victims of this tragedy.

You can't post a link that shows otherwise.

I really don't know what it is you hope to gain by making up claims that are so simple to expose as untrue.
I don't know why you seem to believe your post has become invisible:
Oh I don't think there's the slightest interest in learning lessons from this. It's just another stick with which to beat the All Men Are Bastards drum. Let's shovel more money at Women's Aid and move on.
This is from 2016:
Clodagh Hawe's Family Start Fundraising Appeal for Women's Aid

What's your problem with them appealing for money to be given to Women's Aid? If someone lost a child in a road traffic accident and had asked for people to donate to a road safety charity, I'd find it just as crass of someone to say "Let's shovel some money at (that specific charity) and move on".

You said it twice, in responses to two separate posts. Looks to me like a criticism of Mrs Coll's and her daughter's desire not just to give money to Womens Aid, but to ask others to do so too. Why target Women's Aid otherwise? Are they a bugbear of yours?

And if the person who said it - and repeated it - insisted their comment had nothing to do with the person whose child had died, even though it was made in a thread about their deaths, I'd find that both crass and dishonest.

But hey maybe that's just me.
 

Baron von Biffo

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I don't know why you seem to believe your post has become invisible:

Oh I don't think there's the slightest interest in learning lessons from this. It's just another stick with which to beat the All Men Are Bastards drum. Let's shovel more money at Women's Aid and move on.
This is from 2016:
Clodagh Hawe's Family Start Fundraising Appeal for Women's Aid
What's your problem with money being given to Women's Aid? If someone lost a child in a road traffic accident and had asked for people to donate to a road safety charity, I'd find it just as crass of someone to say "Let's shovel some money at (that specific charity) and move on".

Looks to me like a criticism of Mrs Coll's and her daughter's desire not just to give money to Womens Aid, but to ask others to do so too. Why target Women's Aid otherwise? Are they a bugbear of yours?

And if the person who said it - and repeated it - insisted their comment had nothing to do with the person whose child had died, even though it was made in a thread about their deaths, I'd find that both crass and dishonest.

But hey maybe that's just me.
So it's as I said. None of my posts criticised the families, none of them makes any reference to donations made in memory of any of the victims of this tragedy.

Your claims to the contrary are merely the product of your febrile imagination.
 

General Mayhem

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So a woman murdered by her husband, who also murdered her three children would want to be buried with the monster who murdered them all. That’s your beef?

He was, now he’s not, want to start a petition to exhume him again and return him with his victims?
Look, I’m not an Irish catholic and I’m not married so as far as I’m concerned they’re all dead and it doesn’t matter a fook to me or them what you do with their soulless corpses.

However neither my opinion nor those of some half brained ‘French’ Irish woman are relevant in any way.

The family was buried together and only after reading the tabloids did the silly nonsense start.

The woman and her children were happy and loved and there were no signs otherwise.

Hindsight is imaginary.
 

Buchaill Dana

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Look, I’m not an Irish catholic and I’m not married so as far as I’m concerned they’re all dead and it doesn’t matter a fook to me or them what you do with their soulless corpses.

However neither my opinion nor those of some half brained ‘French’ Irish woman are relevant in any way.

The family was buried together and only after reading the tabloids did the silly nonsense start.

The woman and her children were happy and loved and there were no signs otherwise.

Hindsight is imaginary.
No signs? Is that not the point here...?
 

Antóin Mac Comháin

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Mental health is very far down the priority list for government and male mental health issues don't seem to be on the radar at all. Men are 4 times more likely to commit suicide here than women but there's little or no official interest in addressing the causes.
This case stands out for obvious reasons, insofar as 99.9% of the others decided to bale out alone. There has been an estimated 8 - 10,000 deaths in Ireland through suicide in the past two decades, or, as you've stated, 'men are 4 times more likely to commit suicide here than women.' Alternatively, 80-85% of deaths from suicide have been males. Of the suicides which took place between the Mid-1990's - 2010's, the overwhelming majority have occurred in suicide 'black-spots', or 'suicide clusters', such as those in Dublin, where 25% of the postal codes account for 90% of the 8 - 10,000 deaths. When other forms of self-harm which lead to death are factored into the equation, those figures double, so there has been a ball-point figure of between 16 - 20,000 deaths through self-harm during the stated period. There was a 20-25% increase in the national average of 500-525 between the Mid- 90's and 2009, to 600-625 between 2009 and 2014, which has returned to its previous average. Not only has there been a lack of official interest in addressing the causes, clear and definitive attempts have been made to brush the extent of the problem under the carpet, through the State managed and controlled research. You think I'm lying or exaggerating for effect?

Between 1987 and 1998 there was a 200% increase in officially reported suicides:

National Office for Suicide Prevention: The number of suicides in Ireland doubled between 1987 and 1998: from 245 to 478. In every year from 1987 the number of suicides that occurred exceeded the number that were registered.

Ireland ranks fourth highest in the EU for deaths by suicide for 15-24 year olds. There were 495 deaths by suicide in Ireland in 2010, 405 (82%) of these were among men. This gender differentiation is a constant feature of the deaths by suicide over the last decade. The highest rate is among 20-24 year old males.

Despite two successive decreases the rate in 2012 was still 12% higher than in 2007, the year before the economic recession.

Central Statistics Office: There were 507 suicides registered in 2012. This compares with 525 suicides registered in 2011, a decrease of 3.5%. Males accounted for 81% of all suicide deaths in 2012.

July - 2013- 'We don't know the full extent of suicide numbers' - Limerick coroner

THE CORONER FOR west Limerick has said that recording the level of suicides ‘doesn’t serve anyone’.

Brendan Nix, who has served as coroner for the region since 2001, told RTÉ’s Morning Ireland that the levels of suicide are ‘at contagion level’ across the country and that he doesn’t believe that the true number of suicides across the country is known.

“In 2008 in Limerick, we had 5 suicides recorded through the CSO in Limerick City, with 11 in the county. In 2009, the CSO had 7 in Limerick City and 17 in the county.

“Last year, the city was playing catch-up as we had 15 in the city and 16 in the county.

I feel myself that those figures are a little understated.

However, Nix said that while the law prevented coroners from recording suicide as an official verdict, he did not see the benefit in doing so.

“I direct a jury and make a finding in keeping with the evidence that I have. I have yet to find a pathologists report say that a person committed suicide. - https://www.thejournal.ie/reporting-suicide-serves-nobody-says-limerick-coroner-998134-Jul2013/

May - 2017 - Drop in suicide rate ‘very encouraging’, says Trinity professor

Latest CSO figures show 274 people took their own lives over 10-month period in 2016

A significant drop in the rate of suicide in Ireland has been described as “very encouraging” .

Figures from the Central Statistics Office up to October show 274 people died by suicide in 2016, with the final figures for the year to be released next month.

The total number of suicides for last year is set to be lower than the 451 recorded in 2015. Since 2011, the suicide rate in Ireland has fallen by nearly 20 per cent.

“The rate is going in the right direction, but this is still an urgent, important problem,” said professor of psychiatry in Trinity College Dublin Brendan Kelly. - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/drop-in-suicide-rate-very-encouraging-says-trinity-professor-1.3082871

May 2017 - Suicide rates are falling - but how can we get them to zero?

In 2011, 554 people died by suicide. In 2015, that number had dropped by a fifth to 451.

Those figures for 2015 represent 76 females, and 305 males.

And that’s not a stand-alone year – rates of suicide among women fell from 24% of suicides in 2008 to 17% in 2015, while rates have been increasing in young men.

“In the past, there have been higher rates of suicide among males compared to females,” Professor Brendan Kelly says. “But the difference has never been so stark as it is now.”

Kelly is an international expert on mental health, who advises the Irish government and World Health Organisation on the protection of human rights of the mentally ill and their families through policy, law and practice.

He’s also a consultant psychiatrist at Tallaght Hospital.

He says that we shouldn’t stop doing what we’re doing, but look at additional ways to reach out to men that work better.

“We’ve the most gendered rates of suicide in Europe,” he says. “Looking at these rates might be helpful at getting them down to zero.” - https://www.thejournal.ie/mental-health-ireland-3-3398738-May2017/

The two articles citing the 'government adviser, senior academic and consultant psychiatrist', were penned in the same week in 2017, and apart from the obvious discrepancies between them, the very basic figures don't add-up in the same articles. In one we are told 451 people died, which included 76 females and 305 males, which leaves 80 people unaccounted for, and that's how a total of 245 in 1987, becomes a *decrease* of a total of 478 deaths in 1998, which in turn becomes a *decrease* of a total of 554 in 2010. Throw in a 10 month subtotal for one year and bob's your uncle, the audience are confused, and the suicide epidemic which has plagued working class Ireland for at least the past three decades disappears into thin air..
 

The OD

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Umm, I thought that discussion was long over, I'm amazed to see you're still ruminating. If you say you meant only psychiatrists and not the general public then I completely accept that.

I was more explaining why I read it as I did, not meaning to accuse you of lying or anything. Sorry if that's how it came across.
Ah no worries, I'm a sensitive snowflake at times!
 

General Mayhem

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No signs? Is that not the point here...?
Yes...no...hmmm.

The point is that at least 4 people, maybe 5, were murdered.

Murder is a very serious crime and crimes must be thoroughly and publicly investigated.

Justice must be seen to be done.
 

Antóin Mac Comháin

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From the public interest perspective perhaps there'd be less speculation if more people spoke about him. The claims of a massively inflated ego seem are difficult to grasp for most, hew as a culchie school teacher not an investment fund manager in Singapore. The public just want to understand, I'm sure his family/colleagues/friends could offer some spotlight.

The being caught with porn on school property, like yeah grand, he'd have gotten a slap on the wrist and it'd be hush hushed, being rural Ireland and all. This is hardly the most adversity he's gone through in life. If that's all it took to send him on a spree, then surely there would've been other incidents in the past.

I think the public are missing a lot of detail here and that's what inspires speculation. There's also the usual suspects out of the woodwork turning it into a men v women thing. Cop on and grow up.
"If we consider the things that happen in recorded history, the number of murders and violent assualts has been on a consistent downward trend for the last 20 years. For example, in 1996, 19 women died by homicide, but in the last 10 years, no more than 11 women have had violent deaths in a year. Reporting and column inches have increased in the intervening years, so it can feel like a growing problem rather than a shrinking problem." The good news is that rates of suicide murders are going down. Murder Suicides involving women and children account for 0.1% of the overall total for the years 1987-2019. 85% of the deaths during the same period have been men, with relationship break-ups one of the seven primary causes. It's important to put the tragedy into perspective, and a picture appears to be emerging. It has been established Hawe had been dressing up in his wife’s underwear and clothes, and accessing porn on a school computer, none of which was illegal. It wasn't what he was watching but also where he was watching it which caused an issue, and from there it seems that his wife may not have accepted that aspect of his sexuality. Consumed by jealousy and the thought of losing the woman he still loved he slaughtered his family.

There's also the usual suspects out of the woodwork turning it into a men v women thing.
"Expert claims 8 year olds should be taught about masturbation – leaving This Morning viewers outraged

Fans at home were disgusted by Kate Dawson's claim that primary school children should be educated on sex, porn, and 'self-pleasuring.'

THIS Morning viewers were left outraged earlier today when a sexual behaviour expert claimed that children as young as EIGHT should be taught about masturbation.

Kate Dawson told hosts Eamonn Holmes and Ruth Langsford that while she doesn't personally work with children younger than 11, she believes that those over the age of eight should be educated on sex, porn, and "self-pleasuring".

She explained: "When we work in primary schools I think it's very important to talk about exploring your bodies in a private place.

"It's what most people do and I think boys are more comfortable talking about it [than girls]." -https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/8226412/expert-8-year-olds-taught-masturbation-this-morning-outrage/

In fairness, it's a good idea and should be welcomed imho. However, I wonder what the reaction would have been like if a man suggested something similar?

The being caught with porn on school property, like yeah grand, he'd have gotten a slap on the wrist and it'd be hush hushed, being rural Ireland and all...
The discrepancy between Female and Male Suicides in Ireland suggests that Irish Working Class Men are struggling to cope in the New World Order and they are being crushed at a rate of 5 to 1 times higher than during the northern troubles under the Jackboot of Modern Feminism. Éirígí, Sinn Féin, North & South, the Socialist Party, the Socialist Workers Party, the Irish Labour Party and the Social Democrats all have one thing in common: They are all dominated by Women. Therefore, the power imbalance exists in both the social and the political.

Dr. Cynthia Graham - @cygraham_graham - Feb 23 - Interesting new paper: Sleeping With Younger Men: Women’s Accounts of Sexual Interplay in Age-Hypogamous Intimate Relationships @LuciaOSullivan1 #JSexResearch

Zhana Vrangalova PhD - @DrZhana - Feb 26 - In NYC tmrw & interested in squirting? My friend Lola Jean is gonna try and set the world record in amount squirted in 1 session! Plus a bunch of other fun kinky things to see & try out at this Kinky Carnival. See you there... More info & tix:

Zhana Vrangalova PhD- @DrZhana - Feb 27 - Loving this new study of 55 "cougars". The 30-60 yo women reported that dating younger men allows them to disrupt the traditional sexual script, esp re the expression of female desire, sexual assertiveness, and the importance of female pleasure.

Zhana Vrangalova PhD - @DrZhana - Feb 28 - “The most gratifying thing about doing sex work was the two retirement accounts I opened before I was 23 years old.” A sex worker at this panel on sex work organized by @sxnoir. #sexworkiswork – at The Wing SoHo - https://twitter.com/katedawson6?lang=en

Men aren't being taught from a young age how to cope with Modern Feminists like the Lady Vrangalova, when she replies to the poem he sent her with a text of the new 20 Year-Old Syrian toyboy, having his wicked way with her, and that is fundamentally what happened to Hawe when he exploded, as opposed to the other 99.9% of men who implode when the same emotional impulses are 'triggered' by rejection.
 

Antóin Mac Comháin

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Oh I don't think there's the slightest interest in learning lessons from this. It's just another stick with which to beat the All Men Are Bastards drum. Let's shovel more money at Women's Aid and move on.
Hawe was attending counselling, but still decided his family needed to die in a horribly brutal fashion because of what he had been caught doing. Why do his murders have to be justified?
To seek to understand is not to justify.
'People have a right to know' about murder suicides, says bereaved wife and mother

Speaking at a symposium on media coverage of mental health stories, organised by the Journalism Department at the University of Limerick, Una Butler called for accurate and sensitive reporting of murder suicide cases.

“I can understand that people just cannot comprehend or don’t want to read about it and that is why it is so important that when murder suicide cases are being reported on that it should be reported accurately and in a sensitive manner – no sensationalising, no glamourising of the events,” she explained.

“The media have been and are in a powerful position on how they report anything in general, but in particular with murder suicide accurate reporting is essential. People and society have a right to know how often these cases are happening,” she added.

She said she “turned to the media” in seeking a detailed investigation into that treatment.

“I engaged with the media following the murder suicide of my husband John and daughters, Ella and Zoe in 2010. After their deaths I received a two-page report from the HSE which was inadequate and an insult,” she said.

“I called for a detailed investigation into his treatment from the HSE and also wanted the Mental Health Act 2001 to be amended to include spouses or partners in the treatment of the family member suffering with their mental health to help prevent further cases from happening and also especially for the welfare of children.

“Ultimately, I went public and used the media because I thought and still believe that my family tragedy could have been prevented, had I been involved in my husband’s treatment, my children should be alive. That is the bottom line. - https://www.thejournal.ie/una-butler-media-murder-suicide-3349618-Apr2017/

Of course you missed entirely that Hawe was actually getting help. As was the man in Cork who killed his two children in the car. His wife has campaigned for spouses/family to be made aware of suicidal ideation etc.
I'm not sure if the above is the same case, but Una Butler has called for the inclusion of family members in the treatment of people suffering from depression. I'm not sure where Hawe's situation fits in there, as I don't think he was suffering with a mental illness, and I don't think there was a history of domestic abuse per se. If they were sexually incompatible, which appears to be the case, in theory, counselling could have led them to a place where they could have resolved their differences amicably, and then went their separate ways, so in that respect there is a lot of merit in Butlers idea. The figures are self-evident and speak for themselves, and men are 1,000 times more likely to implode and commit suicide than explode and commit murder-suicide. I'm not trying to minimize what happened, but ultimately, throwing money at Womens Aid won't prevent something similar from happening again. By sheer definition it can't, because it fundamentally boils down to men lacking the skills to deal with emotions like rejection and jealousy, albeit in this case, in a marriage that should probably never have taken place.
 

General Mayhem

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'People have a right to know' about murder suicides, says bereaved wife and mother

Speaking at a symposium on media coverage of mental health stories, organised by the Journalism Department at the University of Limerick, Una Butler called for accurate and sensitive reporting of murder suicide cases.

“I can understand that people just cannot comprehend or don’t want to read about it and that is why it is so important that when murder suicide cases are being reported on that it should be reported accurately and in a sensitive manner – no sensationalising, no glamourising of the events,” she explained.

“The media have been and are in a powerful position on how they report anything in general, but in particular with murder suicide accurate reporting is essential. People and society have a right to know how often these cases are happening,” she added.

She said she “turned to the media” in seeking a detailed investigation into that treatment.

“I engaged with the media following the murder suicide of my husband John and daughters, Ella and Zoe in 2010. After their deaths I received a two-page report from the HSE which was inadequate and an insult,” she said.

“I called for a detailed investigation into his treatment from the HSE and also wanted the Mental Health Act 2001 to be amended to include spouses or partners in the treatment of the family member suffering with their mental health to help prevent further cases from happening and also especially for the welfare of children.

“Ultimately, I went public and used the media because I thought and still believe that my family tragedy could have been prevented, had I been involved in my husband’s treatment, my children should be alive. That is the bottom line. - https://www.thejournal.ie/una-butler-media-murder-suicide-3349618-Apr2017/



I'm not sure if the above is the same case, but Una Butler has called for the inclusion of family members in the treatment of people suffering from depression. I'm not sure where Hawe's situation fits in there, as I don't think he was suffering with a mental illness, and I don't think there was a history of domestic abuse per se. If they were sexually incompatible, which appears to be the case, in theory, counselling could have led them to a place where they could have resolved their differences amicably, and then went their separate ways, so in that respect there is a lot of merit in Butlers idea. The figures are self-evident and speak for themselves, and men are 1,000 times more likely to implode and commit suicide than explode and commit murder-suicide. I'm not trying to minimize what happened, but ultimately, throwing money at Womens Aid won't prevent something similar from happening again. By sheer definition it can't, because it fundamentally boils down to men lacking the skills to deal with emotions like rejection and jealousy, albeit in this case, in a marriage that should probably never have taken place.
Ms Butlers case is quite different in that she is still alive and could be deeply harmed by the information she seeks.

The Hawe case, based on the sketchy information we currently have, does not add up.

It would be interesting to know if Clodagh Hawe routinely booked a holiday on the last night of the summer holidays.

Mr. Hawe had three sons yet his killing of them was apparently an afterthought, the primary target was his wife.

Perhaps they all wore women’s knickers?
 

Pabilito

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You might have had a point about the media forgetting the children who died if you had been able to avoid your usual hatred of women and feminists and make that point.

Instead you turned it into a man vs woman thing, when in fact if the three children had been girls that program title would not have been changed.

And it was only after quite some protest about this that the media began talking about her, instead about about him.

Of course you don't remember that, because you rewrite reality to fit with your hatred of women.
But that is what happened all the same.
Are you capable of engaging with the substance of any of my posts without projecting me as a Woman Hater?
 

Pabilito

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It would be interesting to know if Clodagh Hawe routinely booked a holiday on the last night of the summer holidays.
On that point, I suspect that he probably used that ruse to distract her .. a control freak with his hands on the family purse strings he may have used the carrot of next years holidays and knew she would then be seated on the couch which he had apparently repositioned sometime beforehand so that there was a space behind it from which he attacked her from.. he was one really nasty piece of work.
 

General Mayhem

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On that point, I suspect that he probably used that ruse to distract her .. a control freak with his hands on the family purse strings he may have used the carrot of next years holidays and knew she would then be seated on the couch which he had apparently repositioned sometime beforehand so that there was a space behind it from which he attacked her from.. he was one really nasty piece of work.
Wasn’t the couch moved months earlier?

It was a ‘school’ night so probably not late when he supposedly attacked her with the hatchet. I have read that she had defensive wounds so likely she put up a fight and or screamed during the attack.

How did the boys sleep through her murder and his alleged writing of the multi page confession letter?

Did he write the letter and then think ‘do you know what, I suppose I should go up and slash the lads’ throats now’?

Two of the lads shared a room, were there defensive wounds on either of them?

Either it was organized and planned, or it wasn’t.
 

buttercookie

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Wasn’t the couch moved months earlier?

It was a ‘school’ night so probably not late when he supposedly attacked her with the hatchet. I have read that she had defensive wounds so likely she put up a fight and or screamed during the attack.

How did the boys sleep through her murder and his alleged writing of the multi page confession letter?

Did he write the letter and then think ‘do you know what, I suppose I should go up and slash the lads’ throats now’?

Two of the lads shared a room, were there defensive wounds on either of them?

Either it was organized and planned, or it wasn’t.
If you are hit on the head with an axe you wont be capable of making much noise.

He cut the eldest boys windpipe so he couldnt scream and he then stabbed him to death.

He then stabbed the eleven year old to death and he killed the little six year old with a sawing motion at his throat with the knife. He would have murdered all the children in minutes.

I dont know if you have children but if you do you will know they tend to sleep very soundly. None of them would have been a match for Hawe anyway, not when they were fast asleep when he stabbed them to death.

Have you enough information now.?
 

General Mayhem

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If you are hit on the head with an axe you wont be capable of making much noise.
She had defensive injuries so she was alive and conscious after the attack began. I have not read that her ‘windpipe’ was cut?

He cut the eldest boys windpipe so he couldnt scream and he then stabbed him to death.
The eldest boy had defensive wounds so he fought back, there would have been abnormal sounds in the room.

He then stabbed the eleven year old to death
After killing his older brother in the next bed.

and he killed the little six year old with a sawing motion at his throat with the knife. He would have murdered all the children in minutes.
And none of them made a sound or heard a thing.

I dont know if you have children but if you do you will know they tend to sleep very soundly. None of them would have been a match for Hawe anyway, not when they were fast asleep when he stabbed them to death.
I don’t need to have children to know that 14 year old boys aren’t usually dead asleep at a time when their mother is still drinking tea.

Have you enough information now.?
You didn’t add any.
 

Pabilito

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Wasn’t the couch moved months earlier?

It was a ‘school’ night so probably not late when he supposedly attacked her with the hatchet. I have read that she had defensive wounds so likely she put up a fight and or screamed during the attack.

How did the boys sleep through her murder and his alleged writing of the multi page confession letter?

Did he write the letter and then think ‘do you know what, I suppose I should go up and slash the lads’ throats now’?

Two of the lads shared a room, were there defensive wounds on either of them?

Either it was organized and planned, or it wasn’t.
I suspect it was planned months beforehand.. I doubt she made any sounds after being savagely attacked from behind with a hatchet and the poor boys asleep hadn't a chance against him.
 

General Mayhem

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I suspect it was planned months beforehand..
Ok, what makes you suspect that?

I doubt she made any sounds after being savagely attacked from behind with a hatchet and the poor boys asleep hadn't a chance against him.
When did he transfer the money, was it before or after he killed his wife and sat down to write a five page letter? Was it before or after he finished the letter and decided to kill the boys?

Whatever happened that night, I don’t think he had planned to kill the boys.

I’m not convinced he planned to kill, or did kill, anyone.
 
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