Here I stand, I can do no other...

ellie08

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He was a piece of sh1t and the entire 'reformation' (really 'rupture') was a ****ing catastrophe.
He was appalled at the sick goings on in the Vatican and spoke out about the false money racket of indulgences. He was a brave man, and called it correctly.
 


The Field Marshal

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He was a brave dude, that is for sure. Very humous too and mad into the auld music. On the whole, a top bloke
Luther was a not just a bollox but a bad bollox.

You only have to look at the truly soulless miserable inhuman religion he created known as "Lutheranism" to know this.

Indeed it is not without good reason or coincidence that "Luther" rhymes with "Lucifer".
 

ellie08

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Luther was a not just a bollox but a bad bollox.

You only have to look at the truly soulless miserable inhuman religion he created known as "Lutheranism" to know this.

Indeed it is not without good reason or coincidence that "Luther" rhymes with "Lucifer".
I disagree. The Lutheran church emancipated music. Didn't do much for the sculpture scene though I guess.
 

The Field Marshal

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He was appalled at the sick goings on in the Vatican and spoke out about the false money racket of indulgences. He was a brave man, and called it correctly.
Luther unleashed the 30 years war and wars of religion .

Luther, in writings such as Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants ,can be accused of causing some 100,000 peasants being killed .

An utter scumbag of the very dregs of the earth.

[The idiot Argentinian jesuit priest and former fist for hire Jorge Bergoglio seeks to rewrite history to whitewash the demonic Luther with thankfully little success].
 

ellie08

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Luther unleashed the 30 years war and wars of religion .

Luther, in writings such as Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants ,can be accused of causing some 100,000 peasants being killed .

An utter scumbag of the very dregs of the earth.

[The idiot Argentinian jesuit priest and former fist for hire Jorge Bergoglio seeks to rewrite history to whitewash the demonic Luther with thankfully little success].
He waged no war. The RCC did against those that agreed with him that change was needed. The mighty Princes of the church taxed peasants and terrorised them by making them give any of their meagre profits to them by promising a leg up into heaven. Despicable. He was most correct to speak out against them. When he went on a pilgrimage to the Vatican he saw paedophilia and disgusting behaviour by those who purported to be the head of the Church. And most Lutheran countries have much higher standards of living than any others. Thanks to his teachings.
 

Mitsui2

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Janey, but don't family rows bring out the worst in some people?!
 

gerhard dengler

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And most Lutheran countries have much higher standards of living than any others. Thanks to his teachings.
The Four Motors of Europe have always been Catholic.

Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes region in France, the Lombardy region in Italy, Catalonia region, and Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria in Germany.
 

The Field Marshal

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He waged no war. The RCC did against those that agreed with him that change was needed. The mighty Princes of the church taxed peasants and terrorised them by making them give any of their meagre profits to them by promising a leg up into heaven. Despicable. He was most correct to speak out against them. When he went on a pilgrimage to the Vatican he saw paedophilia and disgusting behaviour by those who purported to be the head of the Church. And most Lutheran countries have much higher standards of living than any others. Thanks to his teachings.
If you want to follow the utterly deluded former fist for hire Argentinian jesuit Jorge Bergoglio then off with you.
He specialises in the half truths you desire to hear.
 

The Field Marshal

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You heathen. How dare you insult the Pope!
Which pope?

There are two men now using that title in the vatican city state.

My reason tells me that the claim to the title of "pope" by the former fist for hire Jorge Bergoglio s.j is not as sound as that of the pope who retired but did,nt i.e. Joseph Ratzinger.aka Pope Benedict XV1.
 

Karloff

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Even back then 500 years ago some Jews were notorious for their actions and bankruptcies that they inflicted on kingdoms through loans given to a king who couldn't afford them personally (but would pay it out of the hide of the people). They engaged in all the skullduggeries of the day, everything from piracy to slavetrading so why would the antisemitism of Luther in his day be controversial? We can only judge people based on their times and judging people at all is not the point. Some here would have you judge him through the lens of the Shoah, that is crazy tunnel vision but quite common in the modern world.

Yes, there was nothing at all extreme about religion in Europe prior to the Reformation.
It's actually the truth that religion in Europe pre reformation was a cementing and relatively benign force. The Reformation tore the continent asunder in bloodshed.

Examined from a distance it was necessary for many good things that would come later - not that this was pre-ordained or that the men who brought it had this in mind. Simply by loosening the relationship between monarch and faith - it made Republic possible, it made egalitarianism possible and a host of other challenging ideas everything from women's rights to animal rights and most of all scientific endeavor was released from the weight of religious supervision. It increased the diversity of thought throughout the continent and that was transformative - but these things happened almost despite the Reformation than because of it.
 

ellie08

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Which pope?

There are two men now using that title in the vatican city state.

My reason tells me that the claim to the title of "pope" by the former fist for hire Jorge Bergoglio s.j is not as sound as that of the pope who retired but did,nt i.e. Joseph Ratzinger.aka Pope Benedict XV1.
Hmm, Why did Ratzinger retire? Was it over his brother? We don't hear much about him these days. An interesting man by all accounts. Why do you hate Francis so much?
 

ellie08

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Even back then 500 years ago some Jews were notorious for their actions and bankruptcies that they inflicted on kingdoms through loans given to a king who couldn't afford them personally (but would pay it out of the hide of the people). They engaged in all the skullduggeries of the day, everything from piracy to slavetrading so why would the antisemitism of Luther in his day be controversial? We can only judge people based on their times and judging people at all is not the point. Some here would have you judge him through the lens of the Shoah, that is crazy tunnel vision but quite common in the modern world.



It's actually the truth that religion in Europe pre reformation was a cementing and relatively benign force. The Reformation tore the continent asunder in bloodshed.

Examined from a distance it was necessary for many good things that would come later - not that this was pre-ordained or that the men who brought it had this in mind. Simply by loosening the relationship between monarch and faith - it made Republic possible, it made egalitarianism possible and a host of other challenging ideas everything from women's rights to animal rights. It increased the diversity of thought throughout the continent and that was transformative - but these things happened almost despite the Reformation than because of it.
Its quite ironic those shouting about Luther's antisemitism given the RCC's role in blaming Jews for Jesus' death up to quite recently.
 

Karloff

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Its quite ironic those shouting about Luther's antisemitism given the RCC's role in blaming Jews for Jesus' death up to quite recently.
Jews did play a role in his death according to the story of Jesus. Jesus was a Jewish born revolutionary, he was surrounded by Jews - it's to be expected that they might have. We have to be willing to criticise Jewish actions (or at least not shy away from drawing attention to facts that may be interpreted as criticisms) the same way we criticise non Jewish actions and not feel that such criticism is some kind of moral offence. At present there is no space for that - in the media or anywhere official - in 500 years maybe they will be discussing this in the way we discuss Catholic rigidity of thought 600 years ago - they will point to those jailed for questioning the orthodoxies of Jewish suffering.

Anyway i know this thread is not (should not have been) about that so i will say no more on that.
 

ellie08

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Jews did play a role in his death according to the story of Jesus. Jesus was a Jewish born revolutionary, he was surrounded by Jews - it's to be expected that they might have. We have to be willing to criticise Jewish actions the same way we criticise non Jewish actions and not feel that such criticism is some kind of moral offence. At present there is no space for that - in the media or anywhere official - in 500 years maybe they will be discussing this in the way we discuss Catholic rigidity of thought 600 years ago.
That's not the point I was making. Luther is accused of antisemitism by some of the catholic posters here. I'm only pointing out the irony that they use this to criticise him and highlight their hypocrisy.
 

Karloff

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That's not the point I was making. Luther is accused of antisemitism by some of the catholic posters here. I'm only pointing out the irony that they use this to criticise him and highlight their hypocrisy.
Yes i agree with you on the hypocrisy.
 

Who is John Galt?

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I think that his success surprised even himself.
My impression is that, initially at least, he wanted to shake up the RCC, not destroy it.
The pent up pressure for change, particularly in northern Europe was totally unforeseen and unanticipated.
 

Tacitus

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I think that his success surprised even himself.
My impression is that, initially at least, he wanted to shake up the RCC, not destroy it.
The pent up pressure for change, particularly in northern Europe was totally unforeseen and unanticipated.
Indeed. Luther initially believed that he could convince the Pope to solve the many problems he had adressed. Luther mind you was far from the first theologian to point out how far the RCC had digressed from the Holy Script. In his first works, he assumed that the pope was mislead by his cardinals and thus he refrained from attacking him. This changed when it became clear that nobody in the church wanted to sincerely discuss the problems.

It is worth stressing that no matter how one may think about Luther, no one can deny how utterly corrupt the RCC was. Selling indulgences and thus giving believers false hope is simply despicable. Luther himself believed that the RCC endangered the souls of its' believers, because if you think that you could buy your place in heaven, you are not sincerely trying to earn it. I don't think anyone can today defend this practice.
 

ellie08

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Indeed. Luther initially believed that he could convince the Pope to solve the many problems he had adressed. Luther mind you was far from the first theologian to point out how far the RCC had digressed from the Holy Script. In his first works, he assumed that the pope was mislead by his cardinals and thus he refrained from attacking him. This changed when it became clear that nobody in the church wanted to sincerely discuss the problems.

It is worth stressing that no matter how one may think about Luther, no one can deny how utterly corrupt the RCC was. Selling indulgences and thus giving believers false hope is simply despicable. Luther himself believed that the RCC endangered the souls of its' believers, because if you think that you could buy your place in heaven, you are not sincerely trying to earn it. I don't think anyone can today defend this practice.
And yet that mindset conveniently continues for the RCC. I see lots of old people who give their paltry pension to the missions or leave their house to the church, and they're doing it for the wrong reasons. Same idea as giving money to light a candle. despicable.
 


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