'Heroic' decree for wartime Pope sparks anger among Jews.

Newsy

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RELATIONS BETWEEN the Catholic Church and Jews struck a familiar raw nerve at the weekend when Pope Benedict XVI approved a decree of “heroic virtue” for the wartime pope, Pius XII.

The controversial Pius was one of 17 people approved by Benedict last Saturday in a list that also included Pope John Paul II and Father Jerzy Popieluszko, a Polish priest killed by Polish secret services in 1984.

The decree of heroic virtue is an important step on the path to sainthood, representing an official finding that the candidate lived a saintly life. The candidate may now be referred to as “venerable” and, if two miracles are documented and accepted by the Vatican’s Congregation for the Cause of Saints, the candidate will be beatified and later sanctified.

While there are unlikely to be many problems relative to John Paul II’s claims to sainthood, the same clearly cannot be said of Pius. For most of the last 60 years, many Jewish groups have argued that Pius, who was pope from 1939 to 1958, was guilty not only of not publicly condemning Hitler’s Nazi-Fascist regime but also of doing little or nothing to prevent the death of an estimated six million Jews in the Holocaust.

The inclusion of Pius in Saturday’s list took Vatican observers by surprise. Most Vatican commentators had expected John Paul II to be on the list, but not Pius XII, thus generating the suspicion that the Holy See had tried to “slip in” one highly controversial pontiff, Pius, for the price of one widely admired one, John Paul II.

Pope Benedict’s announcement prompted immediate criticism from the worldwide Jewish community. In Italy, the president of the Association of Italian Rabbis, Giuseppe Laras, said: “ is a sad one because I cannot help but think of what happened during the Shoah [Holocaust]. The figure of this pope is a controversial one because he did not shout out loud his outrage and his opposition to the Shoah and against the extermination of people whose only crime was that of being Jewish.”

'Heroic' decree for wartime pope sparks anger among Jews - The Irish Times - Mon, Dec 21, 2009

This will awaken many nightmarish memories and open up the woundedness and pain from that time of recent European history.
 


former wesleyan

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For a fairly decent defence of Pius read Michael Burleighs "Sacred Causes ".
There's fairly racist stuff about the Irish in it; but that's usual from an English Catholic wishing to distance himself from the Irish.
 

H.R. Haldeman

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Awesome. So we have an ex-Nazi who believes he talks to God and a people who believe a (slightly) different God personally gave them land arguing over the actions of a different man who talked to God (only in Latin) during a time when the aforementioned ex-Nazi's colleagues were ethnically cleansing Europe of the latter group. All this story needs is a couple of wacky Mullahs, a bible-thumpin' Elmer Gantry or two and a drink-deprived Fr. Jack Hackett to really take off.
 

Nodin

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It's sort of like an ecclesiastical "Falty Towers" at this stage. We may get the "Buddha - fat bastard" encyclical before long.
 

Monday Monday

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I wonder is throwing a tarnished Pius XII into the mix just a ploy to draw the flack away from a JPII who was hardly squeaky clean.

Nobody gives a rats ass about another Saint Pius but a Saint John Paul II is a real money-spinner with the plebs.
 

Monday Monday

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Well, off the top of my head, I would say.

Direct and hard working opposition to contraception in Africa regardless of its effect on the AIDS epidemic on the continent.

Presiding over the biggest sex scandal in Church history (and that's saying something given the Churches history in this area.)

Debasing the churches intellectual capital (I know, don't laugh) by promoting the more superstitious aspects of the religion. ie. Promoted more Saints than any other Pope.

Also, as an aside, JPII was rumoured to have had a LOT of sex when he was a seminarian. Just a rumour mind you, and at least it was sex with adult women, which has got to be worth something these days.

He wasn't a bad pope and, if you were a hard core Catholic, you would probably prefer the thought of the misery of diseased black people (who you don't know) to the thought that a baby might not be born (with or without a fatal disease as the case may be).

But, he was hardly a saint.

And I am aware of the irony in that statement considering he is being fast-tracked to actual Sainthood.
 
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willoughby

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Well off the top of my head I would say.

Direct and hard working opposition to contraception in Africa regardless of its effect on the AIDS epidemic on the continent.

Presiding over the biggest sex scandal in Church history (and that's saying something given the Churches history in this area.)

Debasing the churches intellectual capital (I know, don't laugh) by promoting the more superstitious aspects of the religion. ie. Promoted more Saints than any other Pope.

JPI was rumoured to have had a LOT of sex when he was a seminarian. Just a rumour, mind you, and at least it was sex with adult women, which has got to be worth something these days.

He wasn't a bad pope and if you were a hard core Catholic you would probably prefer the thought of the misery of diseased black people (who you don't know) to the thought that a baby might not be born (with or without a fatal disease as the case may be).

But, he was hardly a saint.

And I am aware of the irony in that statement considering he is being fast-tracked to actual Sainthood.
I see your points. But I would consider JP a more progressive pope than many of his predesecors. The problems you have mentioned were endemic in the catholic church when he came along. All the same I agree with you Sainthood is probably wasted on some. It should be reserved for the Mother teresa's of this world.

I dont know enough about Pius to make a decent contribution but I would think it was very hard to be a pope in wartime Italy that had an atheist ruler. That said, ignoring the plight of the Jews was NOT a very Christian thing to do.
 
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I see your points. But I would consider JP a more progressive pope than many of his predesecors. The problems you have mentioned were endemic in the catholic church when he came along. All the same I agree with you Sainthood is probably wasted on some. It should be reserved for the Mother teresa's of this world.

I dont know enough about Pius to make a decent contribution but I would think it was very hard to be a pope in wartime Italy that had an atheist ruler. That said, ignoring the plight of the Jews was NOT a very Christian thing to do.

New Statesman - The squalid truth behind the legacy of Mother Teresa
 

Half Nelson

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Well, off the top of my head, I would say.

Direct and hard working opposition to contraception in Africa regardless of its effect on the AIDS epidemic on the continent.

Presiding over the biggest sex scandal in Church history (and that's saying something given the Churches history in this area.)

Debasing the churches intellectual capital (I know, don't laugh) by promoting the more superstitious aspects of the religion. ie. Promoted more Saints than any other Pope.

Also, as an aside, JPII was rumoured to have had a LOT of sex when he was a seminarian. Just a rumour mind you, and at least it was sex with adult women, which has got to be worth something these days.

He wasn't a bad pope and, if you were a hard core Catholic, you would probably prefer the thought of the misery of diseased black people (who you don't know) to the thought that a baby might not be born (with or without a fatal disease as the case may be).

But, he was hardly a saint.

And I am aware of the irony in that statement considering he is being fast-tracked to actual Sainthood.
At least you managed to put something factual in your post.
 

mixer73

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Worst of all is the story of Paul Marcinkus. Originally from Chicago, he worked in the Vatican Bank. He was suspected of having ties with the mafia well before JP was elected. The Italian police wanted him extradited to face charges. Instead of handing him over, JP promoted him to President of the bank and protected him for the next 20 years. If you ask me JP was up to his neck in it.
 
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Doesnt Change the fact that what mother teresa was doing (when she was alive and not when Donal Mc Intyre saw it) deserved a Sainthood. Anyway lets try not get too much off point here.

Well this is the point,the Vatican has no problem Sainting those that don't deserve it.

The Truth Seeker - Former Catholic Sister Says Even Mother Teresa Is a Fraud

Mother Teresa's House of Illusions

Defending Mother Teresa

THE $AINTHOOD OF MOTHER TERESA

Susan Shields and Mother Teresa asacredmemory.com
 

willoughby

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I see your point Roland. But Mother Teresa didnt personally benefit from the poor running of some of her orphanages. She started up the orphanages in 1950 but didnt get world wide coverage till the late 1960s. Some of those links seem to suggest that she was running the orphanages for personal profit which I dont accept.
 

Half Nelson

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Worst of all is the story of Paul Marcinkus. Originally from Chicago, he worked in the Vatican Bank. He was suspected of having ties with the mafia well before JP was elected. The Italian police wanted him extradited to face charges. Instead of handing him over, JP promoted him to President of the bank and protected him for the next 20 years. If you ask me JP was up to his neck in it.
This post implies a great deal that isn't true. Marcinkus was appointed President in 1971, by Pope Paul, before the extradition was sought. The Italian arrest warrant was thrown out by its own Supreme Court and was probably motivated by political factors in the first place.
The only certain protection Marcinkus could have obtained was to remain in the Vatican. He didn't do this but was never arrested or charged, even after retirement.
There are serious questions over Marcinkus but let's stick to the facts.
 

Glenshane2

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"Direct and hard working opposition to contraception in Africa regardless of its effect on the AIDS epidemic on the continent."

What was wrong with that? Are you questioning his right to preach Catholicism? Rather like attacking the Chelsea goalkeepr for not allowing the Manchester United forwards to score. The Pope has a duty to preach Catholicism.

"Presiding over the biggest sex scandal in Church history (and that's saying something given the Churches history in this area.)"

In what way was that the Pope's fault?

"Debasing the churches intellectual capital (I know, don't laugh) by promoting the more superstitious aspects of the religion. ie. Promoted more Saints than any other Pope."

Now, now, now. Are you telling the Pope how to do his job. How much experience have you of being Pope?

"Also, as an aside, JPII was rumoured to have had a LOT of sex when he was a seminarian. Just a rumour mind you, and at least it was sex with adult women, which has got to be worth something these days."

"It was rumoured"

"But, he was hardly a saint."

Will you be on the selection committee?
 

Andrew49

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There were some in the Vatican prepared to oppose the Nazis:

Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty, CBE (28 February, 1898 – 30 October, 1963) was an Irish priest and official of the Vatican Curia. During World War II, he was responsible for saving 4,000 Allied soldiers and Jews. Due to his ability to evade the traps set by the Gestapo, Monsignor O'Flaherty earned the nickname "the Scarlet Pimpernel of the Vatican".

After the war, O'Flaherty received a number of awards, including the CBE from Queen Elizabeth and the US Medal of Freedom with Silver Palm. He refused to use the lifetime pension Italy gave him.

 

Thac0man

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I don't see most Jewish people as having a problem with the past Pope Benedic.

If he should be noted for anything it is that he is the one historical figure that unites hard core paranoid Zionists and equally paranoid jew-hating hard leftists. Bleed'in miracle he is! ;)
 

mixer73

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This post implies a great deal that isn't true. Marcinkus was appointed President in 1971, by Pope Paul, before the extradition was sought. The Italian arrest warrant was thrown out by its own Supreme Court and was probably motivated by political factors in the first place.
The only certain protection Marcinkus could have obtained was to remain in the Vatican. He didn't do this but was never arrested or charged, even after retirement.
There are serious questions over Marcinkus but let's stick to the facts.
Upon the election of Pope John Paul II, Marcinkus was promoted within the Vatican as pro-president which is 3rd in command and remained in office for several years even as the scandal widened, after the body of Calvi, whose Banco Ambrosiano had dealt with Marcinkus, was found hanging under London's Blackfriars Bridge in June 1982. Adding to the troubles, journalist Mino Pecorelli, who had been investigating Marcinkus, the Vatican Bank and ties to organized crime, was found dead in 1979. Marcinkus, however, escaped indictment
It is also suggested that Pope John Paul I was on to Marcinkus, which led to his murder after a brief reign as pontiff.
I apologise for some mistakes in my original post but what it implies remains the same. This guy and JP2 were up to their necks in it!
 

reknaw

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Good to see two different sets of religious nutbars at each other's throats.

I don't suppose I'll be around to see it, but maybe in a hundred years from now the then head crossdresser in the Vatican may well be in the process of declaring Pope Benny 16 a saint, but groups of radical Palestinians will be pissing on the picnic by criticising him for not speaking out and condemning the zionazi entity of Israel in the early years of the 21st century when it was in the process of ethnically cleansing the land it had stolen from the Palestinians and committing genocide.:rolleyes:

What goes round comes round.:?
 


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